Pioneer PL-41 TT tonearm rewire, making a plan!

H

hob

Member
Hi- working on a PL-41 TT + a parts machine on the way, so hoping for success to get to hear this beautiful, simply designed machine. Sadly the main TT, which is mostly in darn nice shape, has a dent in the tone arm tube I didn't notice in the pix. Parts donor TT looks to have a good arm, I hope!

Anyway, since I will be working on the arm assembly, probably actually dealing with the tone arm leads anyway, have decided I might as well rewire the tone arm with better quality conductors while there. So, have already seen the mostly older posts from AK'ers discussing this. But here is one concern I did not see discussed, so wanted to make a new post to bring it up for the PL-41 owners:

I considered using extra long arm leads and running them + gnd to a nice RCA/ground screw jack plate installed at the rear of the plinth. That would cure my issue with many TTs that have no ability to use upgraded interconnects.
BUT, if you think about how shielding works, I am pretty certain doing this and terminating with RCA jacks would leave the sensitive arm leads unshielded when they are routed through the plinth right where the AC motor + AC wiring is. In my thoughts, the Pioneer method with their non-standard DIN is shielded all the way through the metal tone arm assembly and then the factory DIN to RCA cable is also shielded to keep it from picking up the 60 Hz hum?
Hmm, anyone have comments or thoughts on this?

Un-pluggable RCA jacks on the plinth would be a great upgrade and also simplify the work too. But i think it will pick up hum, possibly horribly amplified hum?
 
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Duh, later the answer popped in the brain. The correct way to do this would be to install a braided shield tube from tonearm base to a little aluminum output box with the jacks and route those tonearm wires through that. Plenty of room on this model to install that box under plinth. Shielded=quiet.
 
Love the PL-41 era tables from Pioneer. They are true audiophile tables compared to many of their competitors from that time.

Don't forget to put up lots of photos for those folks to see that will discover the 41 at some later stage well after this job has been completed.
 
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Hi IMF-

Yes, I definitely will get some pix up when it’s done. The pl I got that had a plinth has quite a few veneer chips, so the plan is to design/build a new, but also more compact plinth, probably of bamboo. And do the tone arm wire upgrades then.
On this project, it was a sound quality experiment before diving clear in. So since starting the post the unit is now fully mechanically rebuilt so I could hook it up to have a listen with the TT in in good condition. So: cleaned, rebuilt thrust bearing, polished platter shaft, got play out of tonearm gimbal and did Deoxit/Pro Gold on all connections. Only spun a few tracks so far and it’s almost confusing how different it sounds with my Ortophon MC1 I swapped from my Rega RP1 than the same cart sounded on the Rega.
I think I will like this Pioneer a lot better, but need to do a bit of actual critical listening to figure this out. The Rega does sound good, with definitely more highs than the Pio does running the same cart. What I didn’t like about Rega was it never really “grabbed you” especially on rock n blues discs, sounds great on mellower stuff, Jazz, etc. I also suspect the cart may contribute to this, but it’s what I have on hand now.
The main quest was to find out if this is a nice enough deck to run much better carts, probably of the MM variety this time and so far, seems like it probably is. I didn’t think the Rega was worth pursuing that path, even though it’s a decent piece of gear for the price. Thanks, I’ll update if I do anything really cool to this beast!
 
Plinth Science and Other Good Stuff- There is quite a bit of info on AK and around the interwebs on plinth design, materials going to extreme science world, you could spend a lot of time learning and using exotic/hard to source materials. I chose to read some stuff n learn a bit to limit the rabbit hole descent on this project! At that point, the jury was still out on keeping this sweet TT anyway, but knew I could build a nice new one in the same amount of time it took to repair veneer, a job I not really like. Did not take long for bamboo to come up as one of the better materials with the right qualities. To build up mass of the plinth I decided to make the top out of 2" thick bamboo, with 1" for the mitered frame below.
So did the math to accommodate the TT hardware clearances for the thicker materials/my reduced size base for a materials list.
An online order to The Cutting Board Company in Georgia made it easy and they were prompt too. Was able to have the 2" top piece made to size and just bought a big enough 1" one to rip to size on the table saw. Online, everyone talks about how hard it is to cut bamboo, it trashes your tools/bits, etc. Ahh, don't let that scare you. My experience was that it's similar to working with a medium density hardwood like Sapele or something. So, cut and drilled the top. Chose to build the miter frame with no fasteners, just perfectly cut/clamped glued miters. And came up with the scheme to fasten them with countersunk screws from the bottom for a no visible fasteners or filler appearance.
Was going to stain a med walnut like the original and knew an application of sanding sealer would be required for this wood (well, actually bamboo is grass!!) to stain evenly. Did already have a few test stains that looked OK. Applied the Zinnser Bullseye Sanding sealer, this shellac sealer imparted a nice almost dyed looking amber tone to the bamboo and gave me second thoughts. While recoating sanding sealer to get good coverage changed it up and decided natural would look better than my stain samples, so just finished it with 2 coats of Daly's Crystalfin, first coat brushed/sanded and final wiped on with a rag. As a last step I applied Dynamat to all of the underside surfaces that made sense. I do like how it came out.
IMG_0149.jpg
IMG_0148.jpg
Another detail is I did resize the opening for phono cables larger for the install of RCA jacks + a ground lug with room for an under plinth Hammond aluminum project enclosure for shielding later when I rewire the tonearm.

Next up info on some of the tech challenges that were created with the re-plinthing + a listening test with the new plinth.
 
What will you use for the cables? I needed to replace the cables on a TT and used regular RCA cables (cut and stripped the end that was soldered to the TT side. The result wasn't very good - picked up hum easily. Did some searching and found that the video component cables are a better option to cannibalize for TT's. There's always the option to spend the $ on cables made specifically for TT's but that's no fun.
 
Schanz said:
What will you use for the cables? I needed to replace the cables on a TT and used regular RCA cables (cut and stripped the end that was soldered to the TT side. The result wasn't very good - picked up hum easily. Did some searching and found that the video component cables are a better option to cannibalize for TT's. There's always the option to spend the $ on cables made specifically for TT's but that's no fun.
Click to expand...

Hi Schanz-

Maybe 2 plans to choose from there. If the pioneer DIN connector at base of tonearm is standard, (which I haven't had time to determine yet) I would likely buy a Wireworld Plug n play assembly. Have never been disappointed with that brand, but like you said $$.

But probably the best option is: go ahead and rewire the tonearm internal wire using something good with an extra 1' of length out the tonearm base. Then install 2X panel mount RCA jacks + ground lug in a Hammond box (for shielding) mounted inside the plinth base. Did check and you can get standalone braided shielding sleeve. So run the tonearm wires inside shielding sleeve that is electrically attached at both the tonearm base and the Hammond box. That gives you a fully shielded cabling run all the way from front of tonearm to the RCA jacks. The only detail I do not have worked out is if the ground lug needs to be isolated from the Hammond box or not to prevent ground loop hum, but trial and error will answer that! Know there are a lot of TT designs/wiring schemes out there, so this solution may be model-specific.

Option 2 is not that costly and gives you the added benefit of using whatever length and quality of standard interconnect you need later. I was all high on the idea that it also eliminated a connector using straightwire by bypassing the need for a DIN at tonearm base. But that isn't really true; it just moves that connection from tonearm base to the RCA output jacks at back of TT. Oh well!

Yes, working with shielded interconnects can be a tough one to figure out. The component vid one that you mentioned above is likely partially true, they do have better shielding for the MHz signals they carry. But there is still the matter of the connection between the cut video cables/tonearm wire. Making that connection breaks the shield and I think that point is where the hum is picked up. Right down near a 60 Hz line cord and often an AC motor too. You could maybe use grommets and make that soldered connection inside a shielded box and have success that way though. Option 2 above sounds like a winner, only bad is you really need to rewire tonearm to do it properly. Plus plenty of TTs won't have room to fit a shielded project box in there. Have a good one!
 
tonearm wire is a pain in the ass. I try to avoid it at all cost. I considered putting RCA jacks on the back of a Lab-400. Still may do that.
 
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Agreed, never done it, i have enough trouble installing a cartridge! On my donor PL-41 the tonearm came from, the seller had pulled the tonearm wires loose from the DIN @ tonearm base. So i did successfully reconnect that, encouraging. I would have to be in the most peaceful of moods, preferably with all family members gone for the day to pull it off! Luckily after the plinth change this unit sounds damn nice already, it was a quite amazing audio improvement which I'll detail later. But i kinda need the flexibility now and in future to possibly have 2m interconnects, so will likely go in for that later.
Make sure you do a shielded box for the jacks with the LAB, I think you have to for good quiet results. Let's check back later to compare notes how long our swear word lists became after doing this!
 
hob said:
Plinth Science and Other Good Stuff- There is quite a bit of info on AK and around the interwebs on plinth design, materials going to extreme science world, you could spend a lot of time learning and using exotic/hard to source materials. I chose to read some stuff n learn a bit to limit the rabbit hole descent on this project! At that point, the jury was still out on keeping this sweet TT anyway, but knew I could build a nice new one in the same amount of time it took to repair veneer, a job I not really like. Did not take long for bamboo to come up as one of the better materials with the right qualities. To build up mass of the plinth I decided to make the top out of 2" thick bamboo, with 1" for the mitered frame below.
So did the math to accommodate the TT hardware clearances for the thicker materials/my reduced size base for a materials list.
An online order to The Cutting Board Company in Georgia made it easy and they were prompt too. Was able to have the 2" top piece made to size and just bought a big enough 1" one to rip to size on the table saw. Online, everyone talks about how hard it is to cut bamboo, it trashes your tools/bits, etc. Ahh, don't let that scare you. My experience was that it's similar to working with a medium density hardwood like Sapele or something. So, cut and drilled the top. Chose to build the miter frame with no fasteners, just perfectly cut/clamped glued miters. And came up with the scheme to fasten them with countersunk screws from the bottom for a no visible fasteners or filler appearance.
Was going to stain a med walnut like the original and knew an application of sanding sealer would be required for this wood (well, actually bamboo is grass!!) to stain evenly. Did already have a few test stains that looked OK. Applied the Zinnser Bullseye Sanding sealer, this shellac sealer imparted a nice almost dyed looking amber tone to the bamboo and gave me second thoughts. While recoating sanding sealer to get good coverage changed it up and decided natural would look better than my stain samples, so just finished it with 2 coats of Daly's Crystalfin, first coat brushed/sanded and final wiped on with a rag. As a last step I applied Dynamat to all of the underside surfaces that made sense. I do like how it came out.
View attachment 2163968
View attachment 2163971
Another detail is I did resize the opening for phono cables larger for the install of RCA jacks + a ground lug with room for an under plinth Hammond aluminum project enclosure for shielding later when I rewire the tonearm.

Next up info on some of the tech challenges that were created with the re-plinthing + a listening test with the new plinth.
Click to expand...

401749BC-2CCF-471A-9245-55AB46FAF824.jpeg

Big fan of the 41.
 
Whoa Jo-

What a beautiful machine you created! I would imagine that creating that solid-er plinth was a big step up in sound quality, sure was with mine in a one evening listen test with the new plinth. Now mine is disassembled again, working on some final details. PL-41 to me seems like the perfect, simple well engineered platform to start with to improve on details that either were not available at the time or price-point decisions to be super great music source. What cartridge do you like with yours? I am thinking to try Ortophon Bronze when it's finally done, seems like a good fit with my all tube phone/pre/amplification chain.
 
hob said:
Whoa Jo-

What a beautiful machine you created! I would imagine that creating that solid-er plinth was a big step up in sound quality, sure was with mine in a one evening listen test with the new plinth. Now mine is disassembled again, working on some final details. PL-41 to me seems like the perfect, simple well engineered platform to start with to improve on details that either were not available at the time or price-point decisions to be super great music source. What cartridge do you like with yours? I am thinking to try Ortophon Bronze when it's finally done, seems like a good fit with my all tube phone/pre/amplification chain.
Click to expand...

If you can find an AT13Ea grab one, they pair well with the arm. For MC carts I like my Blue Point No.2 and the Denon 110 is a good combo for the arm. Can be hard to find but they show up on eBay every now and than. A used one would be low buck, and a new LPgear stylus is a good combo. I have a few of them, one NOS. They just do very well with this arm.

I’m a big fan of the 41, i put away a Linn to run the 41. IMO they are one of the best full manual belt driven decks. I love the bearing on them, a new high quality thrust plate and some synthetic lube it will let it spin for days. The plater on the thing is just a beast.

I’ve got a few high end tables but the 41 will always be one of my favorites. The arm is fantastic, some folks don’t like that it lacks anti-skate but it doesn’t need it, it’s a well balanced arm.

The stock cart they came with the C-9 is also a fantastic cart, I have a NOS one and the original, pioneer really did a great job on in the 41. Build quality and SQ is superior to a lot of more expensive decks. Make sure you set the overhang correctly. It makes a huge difference!

Good luck on the project, can’t wait to hear your thoughts on it!
 
jobrewer1983 said:
If you can find an AT13Ea grab one, they pair well with the arm. For MC carts I like my Blue Point No.2 and the Denon 110 is a good combo for the arm. Can be hard to find but they show up on eBay every now and than. A used one would be low buck, and a new LPgear stylus is a good combo. I have a few of them, one NOS. They just do very well with this arm.

I’m a big fan of the 41, i put away a Linn to run the 41. IMO they are one of the best full manual belt driven decks. I love the bearing on them, a new high quality thrust plate and some synthetic lube it will let it spin for days. The plater on the thing is just a beast.

I’ve got a few high end tables but the 41 will always be one of my favorites. The arm is fantastic, some folks don’t like that it lacks anti-skate but it doesn’t need it, it’s a well balanced arm.

The stock cart they came with the C-9 is also a fantastic cart, I have a NOS one and the original, pioneer really did a great job on in the 41. Build quality and SQ is superior to a lot of more expensive decks. Make sure you set the overhang correctly. It makes a huge difference!

Good luck on the project, can’t wait to hear your thoughts on it!
Click to expand...

Hi Jo-

Thanks for taking the time on cart recommendations, appreciate. Yes, I agree with everything you say about the TT. Overhang was easy to get right and it tracks even some pretty warped records like a champ. Did the same thing as you with thrust plate/synthetic lube and platter spins forever without the belt on. It's a precision machine. Mine had a nickel for a thrust plate when I took it apart! My main and the parts donor both had plenty of play in tonearm bearing assembly, but it was easy to carefully adjust that to where it the slack is no more. It's a great machine. My thoughts on SQ are beyond my expectations, it's a keeper and finally done, which I'll detail further when I get some time. I was actually looking for some type of auto lift vintage model when I came across PL-41 to better fit the lifestyle. But even the old school/thoughtful design with the cueing up front on the TT with power switch helped a lot in making a full manual TT viable. Very glad I searched on Craig's and did the 4 hr round trip to get this!

Bye, bye Rega you weird little British design! Actually nothing wrong with Rega, my "slam" is more of a joke I suppose. But in comparison, the old school quality/design values of this Pioneer and performance potential lets me know I made a step in the right direction.
 
JIS- what is it, still don't really know! (or want to now) Going with a 2" solid plinth top required longer screws, which was surprisingly dumb. In 2 trips to 2 well stocked local hardware stores, I failed to find a thread match, a first for me. Before going I did wonder, hmmm Japanese, Hmm 60's or 70's, would they have used SAE or metric? The original plinth mount screws screwed right into a 12/24 SAE nut and didn't have any more play than a 12/24 screw, so thought I hit the right size maybe. SAE on Japan gear didn't really make sense. On the metric size 5mm seemed to fit the diameter but wouldn't thread in, so pitch must've been wrong. So, went home with my long 10/24 screws, not a fit and screwed in only 3/4 a turn before binding up.
Started some googling and finally came across the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) and how they had used some unique fastener sizes pre-1970 before they finally adopted normal metric. Old Toyota Land Cruiser fans have had issues finding fasteners and in particular Landcruiser sun visor screws are unobtanium. Then, drilled down finding car guys had found a solution. (which I thought was brilliant info I would post here to help the Japan gear fans, but apparently not it seems)
Standard 5mm metric screw pitch is .8, the old JIS standard was .9mm. A super smart Landcruiser guy said you could buy a 5mm/.9 die from amazon and just rethread a SAE 10/24 screw to the correct thread. Got the weirdo die size the next day on a weekend, easily rethreaded/cleaned up my long screws and was super psyched to finally get this PL-41 properly attached and torqued to my new plinth. Apparently a Toyota is not a Pioneer, it was improved to fit closer, but at about 2 turns into the PL-41 casting began to tighten up like a non fitting thread feels. At this point I did finally run out of patience, over cranked the close-but-not-correct screws to effectively rethread the Pioneer. (I am keeping it for a lifetime, sooo) This made it so I could finally get the assembly correctly mounted and torqued and it is staying assembled. I think if you had more patience than me, you could likely order from Great Britain some "whitworth" standard screws that may be the right thing. But once I hit Dave's "patience wall" and it looked like more research + waiting for a week or more for 5 screws i did quit researching. So sorry, no valuable solutions or JIS info here!
 
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For this project life intervened, and even though it was likely only 10-12 hrs to complete this, had to do it in whatever little chunks of time were available. So it took forever and tested my patience anticipating to listen! The "schedule" was so damn spazzy that it's done for now, installed in a tight spot till the next upgrade work AND I FORGOT TO TAKE ANY GOOD PIX! I did learn the answer to the question: PL-41 is definitely a nice quality piece of hardware worthy of buying and trying some nice carts for.

Last listen was with all Pio mechanicals restored, cleaned, maintained with it still in original plinth. And setup with the Ortophon MC1 hi output moving coil (which I thought I didn't like) that I removed from my Rega TT. I liked the PL-41, but mainly was confused of the differences between it and the Rega running the same cart and no decisive winner at all then.

Next listen was with the Pio hardware installed with only 2 screws in the new bamboo plinth (thread issue detailed above) and just small stick on rubber feet while I was waiting for the last parts to get here. What an amazing difference in SQ the plinth made!! Instantly could tell when the needle dropped that I will love this TT a long time. Listened part of the evening, at one point pressed down on the Pio cast base and noticed that really affected the sound, fiddled with that a bit to understand. Played it loud between the speaks and noticed vibratory transmission to the stylus. So did expect it to be further improvement with the Pio correctly torqued in plinth and isolating feet.

Dealt with the screw issue in post above. I have a ridiculously low 8" height restriction in the current stereo furniture TT cubby while in this house. So I chose Herbie's thick Grungebuster dots and had a feeling they would technically work good. Proper TT hardware mounting/even torque and the Herbie's feet made another large leap forward in SQ to amazing. The MC1 cart is not recognizable after hearing it lots on the Rega and the Pio PL-41 in stock form, it sounds great now and I will definitely use up the rest of MC1's life before I make a change there. Another weird: this thread is titled something about PL-41 tonearm wire upgrade. Well, the SQ is so fantastic I am just running the stock Pioneer interconnects it came with until it's time for a new cart and will take the time to rewire then. As Jo and others had warned me this is a very excellent TT hardware and as it sits now is probably the best music source I have owned, possibly not including 1/2 track studio reel-to reel mastering decks. But its been so long since I owned the reel to reels that doesn't count! Pioneer PL-41 is one fine turntable and I highly recommend bamboo from a tech standpoint as a plinth material too.
IMG_0151.jpg
 
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hob said:
Jo-

I really like how you inset the Pioneer hardware in your plinth so it is flush, that is a refined look. Also, just noticed your choice of speaks in your sig line- I have spent plenty dozens n dozens of hours working on 4301 monitors powered by a Hafler amp in a previous timeline; those are great speaks.
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2294C12B-B869-4B2D-BB2E-AA9C95F572C5.jpeg 593875ED-CAEE-4187-A773-B9022301460A.jpeg

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Thanks @hob

I’m a JBL fanatic, I’ve had many sets, 2 of the 4301b. The 4301b are a lot of fun. I rebuilt the crossovers a while back. I really love the Jantzen Z-caps with JBL drivers. It really makes them sound fantastic.

I still have a few sets on hand, have some nice L-166A’s and some 4401s and the 4301b.


One of my old set ups ^^

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCHGpomcqy7oRcLDYNErXOWA/videos

Some of my videos ^^
 
hob said:
For this project life intervened, and even though it was likely only 10-12 hrs to complete this, had to do it in whatever little chunks of time were available. So it took forever and tested my patience anticipating to listen! The "schedule" was so damn spazzy that it's done for now, installed in a tight spot till the next upgrade work AND I FORGOT TO TAKE ANY GOOD PIX! I did learn the answer to the question: PL-41 is definitely a nice quality piece of hardware worthy of buying and trying some nice carts for.

Last listen was with all Pio mechanicals restored, cleaned, maintained with it still in original plinth. And setup with the Ortophon MC1 hi output moving coil (which I thought I didn't like) that I removed from my Rega TT. I liked the PL-41, but mainly was confused of the differences between it and the Rega running the same cart and no decisive winner at all then.

Next listen was with the Pio hardware installed with only 2 screws in the new bamboo plinth (thread issue detailed above) and just small stick on rubber feet while I was waiting for the last parts to get here. What an amazing difference in SQ the plinth made!! Instantly could tell when the needle dropped that I will love this TT a long time. Listened part of the evening, at one point pressed down on the Pio cast base and noticed that really affected the sound, fiddled with that a bit to understand. Played it loud between the speaks and noticed vibratory transmission to the stylus. So did expect it to be further improvement with the Pio correctly torqued in plinth and isolating feet.

Dealt with the screw issue in post above. I have a ridiculously low 8" height restriction in the current stereo furniture TT cubby while in this house. So I chose Herbie's thick Grungebuster dots and had a feeling they would technically work good. Proper TT hardware mounting/even torque and the Herbie's feet made another large leap forward in SQ to amazing. The MC1 cart is not recognizable after hearing it lots on the Rega and the Pio PL-41 in stock form, it sounds great now and I will definitely use up the rest of MC1's life before I make a change there. Another weird: this thread is titled something about PL-41 tonearm wire upgrade. Well, the SQ is so fantastic I am just running the stock Pioneer interconnects it came with until it's time for a new cart and will take the time to rewire then. As Jo and others had warned me this is a very excellent TT hardware and as it sits now is probably the best music source I have owned, possibly not including 1/2 track studio reel-to reel mastering decks. But its been so long since I owned the reel to reels that doesn't count! Pioneer PL-41 is one fine turntable and I highly recommend bamboo from a tech standpoint as a plinth material too.
View attachment 2167440
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Wow!!!!! That looks amazing! I recently picked up a PL-510a, would love to have a plinth like that built for it. That plinth looks amazing!
 
jobrewer1983 said:
Wow!!!!! That looks amazing! I recently picked up a PL-510a, would love to have a plinth like that built for it. That plinth looks amazing!
Click to expand...
Jo-

Thanks and glad that you like it! I can certainly recommend bamboo from a technical standpoint, it's damping properties made a huge difference in the SQ of this TT. Making the plinth was fairly easy: order the size of 2" bamboo that you want, build a mitered lower base of 1" bamboo, do the cutouts for TT hardware in the top and screw top n bottom together. I'm not a huge fan of the aesthetics of bamboo myself, unless it's in a tropical hotel on a nice island vacation! But it did end up looking nice and the physical properties of it made this little project a successful experiment!
 
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