pioneer SA 9800 rattle on power one, relay

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bikerdon

Active Member
I saw on a previous thread that this could be my problem, and sure enough it is. From the service manual it looks like the board is AWM-163. When you first turn the unit on, it looks like everything is fine, but no sound, then about a minut later, it starts to make a vibrating/rattling sound and then you get sound....If you turn it off, and then back on again, it has a delay and a very short rattle (about 2 sec, vs 10 seconds when initial power on) and then there is sound...

It is the relay vibrating as was talked about in a previous thread, I was just wondering if anyone knows which parts I should test in this circuit...

I also have a small constant buzzing in the left channel, it is always there no matter what, hard to hear when music is turned up, but I figure I can get to that latter....

Thanks in advance...
DC
 
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I noticed some corrosion on the back side of that board, but I am not sure how bad it is...I am a novice at this at best.
 

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I read on another thread where someone solved the problem by replacing cap C17 on the power supply board...I found that cap on my unit, and put a tester onthe two leads (31/32) shown in the pic, and it starts at 80 volts and slowly rises, once it gets to 97v the relay starts to come alive and at 98/99 it closes...

I am not even sure if I am doing this right, but there seems to be a connection, the caps looks good, and its an 80V cap so I am a little confusted.
 

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Those photos don't really indicate corrosion, but do show some evidence of component replacement. That looks like flux residue in the pics, and nothing to worry about directly. There are some things to check on this beast. I have one and just did a complete recap of it and replaced some other "known suspects" as well. It purrs as good as the day it was born.

Check for loose solder joints (commonly referred to as 'cold solder joints'). They will look good, but (with power off/unplugged and the main caps discharged) gently wiggle all caps and transistors with your finger, or an insulated tool and look at the opposite side (trace side) of the circuit board for movement. Some of the transistors get really hot and from the heat up and cool down cycling will expand and contract and cause broken solder joints, thus giving you loose and intermittent connections. You can re-flow fresh solder on the boards, or if you find any loose components, repair them solo. Pay special attention to the power supply and amp board as they generate the most heat. There are transistors with "U" shaped aluminum heatsinks attached. Those are the ones that are known to heat up and require heat sinked dissipation.

But... It sounds to me like it might be a cap, or several caps that have begun to dry out and aren't taking the charge and retaining it fast enough to pull in that soft-start (start-up/protection) relay. The relay contacts themselves may need burnishing as they made have some corrosion or burning on them preventing them from holding upon energizing. Bottom line is, if it has not been recapped, it is time...

Your assessment on the cap charge is spot on and a real indicator of an issue.
 
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The voltage at that point is supposed to be about 52V. I question your measurement methodology.

Chances are the unit has some worn-out caps and a weak relay driver transistor (Q3 on the prot. board). Most of the 9800's I've seen gave me fits until I had pretty much replaced every electrolytic in the unit.
 
First off thanks to everyone for being so patient...I have been in computers for 30 years and no what its like to constantly have to show people how to do the same thing over and over...so thanks for the help.

I loosened the screws and removed all the wire wraps and zip ties to try and get to the other side of the Power Supply board, but it is really challenging (I dont want to break anything) I can kind of see the other side and it looks super clean...I wiggled all the caps but couldnt even see a lead move on the other side...Is there a way for me to test that 80V cap I mentioned above? I was probably testing it wrong....pretend I am an absolute idiot (who doesnt know any better to be messing around with this) and tell me where to place the leads of my MM to test that cap (or others for that matter)....

Again, thanks in advance...
 
Unwrapping the wire wrap is generally frowned upon. Those wire wraps were put on at the factory with pressure that causes the wire (solid core) to cut into the post on all corners of the posts themselves making an oxygen free type contact. Once they are removed, the solid core wire will likely break, or weaken to the point of compromised integrity. "If" you have enough wire length, you can strip it back and resolder it to the post, but this can be a bear. On my SX-3900, I rewired the entire receiver (all boards) with new wire. Soldered to the wire wrap posts. It was an undertaking that I wouldn't want to take on again anytime soon. Or, you can get a wire wrap gun and re-wrap them...

Generally the loose solder joints will be on the componenets that heat up the most, but it can happen on other non-commonly heated parts too. Transistors are the general culprit.

EW is a pro on Pioneer gear and is one to listen to for sure. MTF is also a pro on Pioneer gear and won't steer you wrong.
 
The voltage of pin 8 of AWM-163 is around 36Vdc+24Vp-p(alternative voltage between 36~60V),that's why you can't get a correct reading by a DVM.

The standard delay time for a relay in protection circuit to click after power on is about 4~6 seconds,in case of SA9800,the C2 starts charging from about 0 volt,up to ~15 volt 5 seconds later(D4 15V zener+0.7 V Vbe of Q3),it turns Q3 on and make the relay click.

If your C2 charges very slow you can see it by measure the voltage of cathode of D4(DCV),if it does take 1 minute to 15Vdc I suggest you to replace c2 220uf/16V and c3 4.7uf/50V,then let's see whether this issue still exist or not.

Jack
 
Thanks for the reply Jack,

I put it away for a few days looking for someone around here to take it to, but no luck. Anyway, I hooked it back up and now the relay does not come one and the display does not light up. I am reading 40v on pin 8 after about a minute on...this connect to pin 30 on the power supply board AWR 194...I am only getting 11.7v on D4 after being on a couple of minutes
Ughh
 
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I measured the voltage on the caps...
C1 470uf/6....no voltage reading
C2 220uf/16 12 Volts
C3 4.7uf/50v 31 Volts

I measured by putting one lead of my MM on either side of the contacts of the caps.
 
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We better to narrow down the possibilities which could cause the issue.

1.40V on pin 8 is high enough to for C2 charges up to 15V and turns on the TR Q3.
you get the 40V on pin 8 at power on,right?
(+ red probe of DMM to pin8,- black probe to pin11(ground).

2.pin 12 and pin 13 are outputs of power amp,the voltages on pin 12 and pin 13 better to be between +-20mVdc if the amp is well adjusted.0 mV is perfect,within +-50mV is acceptable (but better to be adjusted when you fix this issue)

If you got couple DC voltages on any of the two pins it will turns on either Q1 or Q2 that will engage the protection circuit and discharge C2,turns off Q3 and relay.thus you better to watch the DC voltages on pin12 and pin 13 each for 1 minute right after power on.

when measure volt on Pin12:+ red probe of DMM to pin12,- black probe to pin11(ground),
when measure volt on pin13:+ red probe of DMM to pin13,- black probe to pin11(ground),

3.please check the voltages of anode and cathode of D3 and base of Q3(ref to ground/- black probe connects to ground)

When you measure DCV with you DMM please connect the ground(- black probe) to pin 11 of AWM-163(ground) or to metal frame(you can use metal frame as DCV ground).

Jack
 
unless i missed something, he has NOT changed out ANY components....

i posted on this type of circuit before, the dc current through q3 is NOT enough to PULL IN the relay without the extra kick provided by a GOOD C3 (4.7uf 50v).

it IS enough to HOLD IT IN.

SO

replace c1, c2, c3 and q3 on the AWM-163 as EchoWars slightly less specifically said.

here's a good parts list and substitution post:
SolutionRoom said:
Yes. But as always... take this parts list with caution and ALWAYS, ALWAYS look at your very own SA-9800 to check the validity of this list to what you actually have in your unit, because they can AND DO often vary. And, THIS particular list is mine and for my specific SA-9800 and my situation. And one final word of caution... this list may have been modified a tad for the order placed, to be used as a guide only. YMMV... Good luck.

Capacitors

Power Supply
awr-194 c2 220uf 80v ceb axial 220 100 647-TVX2A221MCD
awr-194 c3 220uf 80v ceb axial 220 100 647-TVX2A221MCD
awr-194 c4 47uf 10v cea 47 10 647-UPW1A470MDD6
awr-194 c7 47uf 63v cea 47 100 647-UPW2A470MPD1TD
awr-194 c8 47uf 63v cea 47 100 647-UPW2A470MPD1TD
awr-194 c9 47uf 63v cea 47 100 647-UPW2A470MPD1TD
awr-194 c10 47uf 63v cea 47 100 647-UPW2A470MPD1TD
awr-194 c13 2.2uf 50v cea 2.2 50 647-UPW1H2R2MDD
awr-194 c14 2.2uf 50v cea 2.2 50 647-UPW1H2R2MDD
awr-194 c15 100uf 35v cea 100 35 647-UPW1V101MPD1TD
awr-194 c16 100uf 35v cea 100 35 647-UPW1V101MPD1TD
awr-194 c17 10uf 80v cea 10 100 647-UPW2A100MED

Amp Left
gwh-129 c1 2.2uf 50v ceanl 2.2 50 647-UKL1H2R2MDDANA
gwh-129 c11 47uf 63v cea 47 100 647-UPW2A470MPD1TD
gwh-129 c13 47uf 63v cea 47 100 647-UPW2A470MPD1TD

Amp Right
gwh-130 c2 2.2uf 50v ceanl 2.2 50 647-UKL1H2R2MDDANA
gwh-130 c12 47uf 63v cea 47 100 647-UPW2A470MPD1TD
gwh-130 c14 47uf 63v cea 47 100 647-UPW2A470MPD1TD

EQ
gwf-116 c3 100uf 6v ceanl 100 10 647-UKL1A101KED1TD
gwf-116 c4 100uf 6v ceanl 100 10 647-UKL1A101KED1TD
gwf-116 c5 100uf 6v ceanl 100 10 647-UKL1A101KED1TD
gwf-116 c6 100uf 6v ceanl 100 10 647-UKL1A101KED1TD
gwf-116 c7 100uf 6v ceanl 100 10 647-UKL1A101KED1TD
gwf-116 c8 100uf 6v ceanl 100 10 647-UKL1A101KED1TD
gwf-116 c9 100uf 35v cea 100 35 647-UPW1V101MPD1TD
gwf-116 c10 100uf 35v cea 100 35 647-UPW1V101MPD1TD
gwf-116 c11 100uf 35v cea 100 35 647-UPW1V101MPD1TD
gwf-116 c12 100uf 35v cea 100 35 647-UPW1V101MPD1TD
gwf-116 c17 100uf 16v cea 100 16 647-UPW1C101MED
gwf-116 c18 100uf 16v cea 100 16 647-UPW1C101MED
gwf-116 c19 100uf 16v cea 100 16 647-UPW1C101MED
gwf-116 c20 100uf 16v cea 100 16 647-UPW1C101MED
gwf-116 c23 4.7uf 25v ach-318 np 4.7 25 647-UES1E4R7MDM
gwf-116 c24 4.7uf 25v ach-318 np 4.7 25 647-UES1E4R7MDM
gwf-116 c35 220uf 10v cea 220 10 647-UPW1A221MED
gwf-116 c36 220uf 10v cea 220 10 647-UPW1A221MED
gwf-116 c41 4.7uf 25v ach-318 np 4.7 25 647-UES1E4R7MDM
gwf-116 c42 4.7uf 25v ach-318 np 4.7 25 647-UES1E4R7MDM
gwf-116 c45 47uf 50v cea 47 50 647-UPW1H470MED
gwf-116 c46 47uf 50v cea 47 50 647-UPW1H470MED

Protection
awm-163 c1 470uf 6v cea 470 10 647-UPW1A471MPD
awm-163 c2 220uf 16v cea 220 25 647-UPW1E221MPD
awm-163 c3 4.7uf 50v cea 4.7 50 647-UPW1H4R7MDD

Filter
gws-176 c39 1uf 50v ceanl 1 50 647-UKL1H010MDDANA
gws-176 c40 1uf 50v ceanl 1 50 647-UKL1H010MDDANA
gws-176 c41 2.2uf 50v ceanl 2.2 50 647-UKL1H2R2MDDANA
gws-176 c42 2.2uf 50v ceanl 2.2 50 647-UKL1H2R2MDDANA

TC
gwg-124 c7 4.7uf 25v ach-318 np 4.7 25 647-UES1E4R7MDM
gwg-124 c8 4.7uf 25v ach-318 np 4.7 25 647-UES1E4R7MDM
gwg-124 c19 10uf 16v ceanl 10 16 647-UKL1C100KDDANA
gwg-124 c20 10uf 16v ceanl 10 16 647-UKL1C100KDDANA
gwg-124 c29 4.7uf 25v ceanl 4.7 25 647-UKL1E4R7KDDANA
gwg-124 c30 4.7uf 25v ceanl 4.7 25 647-UKL1E4R7KDDANA
gwg-124 c31 47uf 35v cea 47 35 647-UPW1V470MED
gwg-124 c32 47uf 35v cea 47 35 647-UPW1V470MED

Indicator
awv-002 c3 1uf 50v cea 1 50 647-UPW1H010MDD1TD
awv-002 c4 1uf 50v cea 1 50 647-UPW1H010MDD1TD
awv-002 c5 2.2uf 50v cea 2.2 50 647-UPW1H2R2MDD
awv-002 c6 2.2uf 50v cea 2.2 50 647-UPW1H2R2MDD
awv-002 c9 47uf 10v cea 47 10 647-UPW1A470MDD6
awv-002 c10 220uf 25v cea 220 25 647-UPW1E221MPD
awv-002 c11 3.3uf 50v cea 3.3 100 647-UPW2A3R3MDD
awv-002 c12 3.3uf 50v cea 3.3 100 647-UPW2A3R3MDD


Trim Pots

Amp Left
gwh-129 vr1 330k multi offset 652-3296P-1-204LF
gwh-129 vr3 100 single idle 70 652-3386H-1-101LF
gwh-129 vr5 47k single idle 56 652-3386H-1-503LF

Amp Right
gwh-130 vr2 330k multi offset 652-3296P-1-204LF
gwh-130 vr4 100 single idle 70 652-3386H-1-101LF
gwh-130 vr6 47k single idle 56 652-3386H-1-503LF


Transistors

Power Supply
awr-194 q1 2sc1735 pwr pass + 100v .5a .8w 512-KSC2690AYS to-126
awr-194 q2 2sc1735 pwr pass - 100v .5a .8w 512-KSC2690AYS to-126
awr-194 q3 2sa733 pwr darl + 50v 0.15a 0.25w 512-KSA1013YBU to-92L
awr-194 q4 2sa904 pwr darl - 90v 0.05a 0.2w 512-KSA1013YBU to-92L
awr-194 q5 2sk34
awr-194 q6 2sk34
awr-194 q7 2sc1914 fb ampl + 90v 0.05a 0.2w 512-KSC1845FTA (ln)to-92
awr-194 q8 2sa904 fb ampl - 90v 0.05a 0.2w 512-KSA992FBU (ln)to-92
awr-194 q9 2sc945 lv err amp + 50v 0.1a 0.25w 512-KSC2383YBU to-92L
awr-194 q10 2sa733 lv err amp - 50v 0.15a 0.25w 512-KSA1013YBU to-92L
awr-194 q11 2sd712 Replace with 512-KSC2073TU
awr-194 q12 2sb682 Replace with 512-KSA940TU
awr-194 d5 xz-060 main zener 512-1n5233b
awr-194 d10 mz-177 512-1N5247B
 
Protection Board
awm-163 Q1 2SC945A Replace with 512-KSC2383OTA
awm-163 Q2 2SC945A Replace with 512-KSC2383OTA
awm-163 Q3 2SC1885 Replace with 512-KSC2690AYS to-126

Amp Left
gwh-129 Q7 2SA912 TO-92L Replace with 512-KSA1220AYS TO-126
gwh-129 Q9 2SA726S Replace with 512-KSA992FBU
gwh-129 Q11 2SC1885 TO-92L Replace with 512-KSC2690AYS TO-126

Amp Right
gwh-130 Q8 2SA912 TO-92L Replace with 512-KSA1220AYS TO-126
gwh-130 Q10 2SA726S Replace with 512-KSA992FBU
gwh-130 Q12 2SC1885 TO-92L Replace with 512-KSC2690AYS TO-126
Click to expand...
 
Here is what I got
Pin 13 .5 DCV
Pin 12 .38 DCV
Q3 72.7 DCV
D3 72.7 DCV (measured middle pin)

I can see C3 on the diagram, and there are two spots for it on my board...It should be directly under C2, but I swear there is nothing there, I unscrewed the display and moved it aside to get a better look, but no cap.
 
pins 12 (.38) and 13 (.5) should be a LOT closer to 0.000 volts, they are in the grey area between good and bad.

go to the awr-191 power supply board and measure (to ground ) these pins voltages:
1 neg 52v
3 pos 52v
5 pos 32v
10 neg 32v

good is within ten percent.
if all 4 are good, then do the service manual's dc balance adjustment procedure (to 0.000v although it allows 0.060v max) on both power amplifier boards gwh-119 and gwh-120.
 
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i dont know if it means anything, but my power supply board is stamped awr-194

Pin 1 -53.3
Pin 3 + 52.2
Pin 5 + 32.8
Pin 10 - 32.4
 
I was able to adjust the DC Balance to Zero on both boards, but when I went to adjust the idle current, it wouldnt really adjust on either board. I am suppose to be able to set it at 56mV between pins 39(+) and 37(-) but I can only get a reading of 003 mV...BTW my boards are 129 and 130...My unit has the switching power supply to 240V I wonder if that is why all the board numbers are off? Thanks for your patience...
 
its either me confused or you are ? but are your boards in fact the correct numbers ? i am going off the board numbers in an earlier post .
 
I am not confused, the boards are where they say they are in the service manual, but the numbers are off...I dont know why, but they are. All the components seem to be where they are supposed to be as well, but the numbers on actual boards are different. I only brought it up because I don't know if it means anything to anyone..
 
i didn't say anything about idle current, but i also didn't say not to..... sigh....

if the pots for idle are not exercised (power off!!!) before zeroing (confirm zero ohms with ohmmeter!!), adjusting with power on can bring some nasty surprises.

those adjustments are tricky and potentially dangerous when done wrong (cw/ccw confusion, pot location confusion etc..)
 
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