Plumbing Help - Noisy Pipes

JDaniel

JDaniel

Super Member
A couple of months ago, I started having noisy pipes in the outside wall behind my downstairs bathroom. I don't know if this is a condition called "water hammer" or not. Is it air in the pipes? But whenever I flush the toilet, about 10 seconds later, the vibration sound is VERY loud. I get the same vibration sound, in the exact same location, when I shut off the water to the shower in my Master Bath, on the upper floor, opposite end of the house. Those are the only two fixtures that cause this noise.

What could be causing this, and what's the solution? I've tried "bleeding" the system as best I know how. I turned on every faucet, tub, sink, and outside faucet, let them run for a while, then one by one turned them off. Didn't help.

I know for a fact the pipes are secured to the studs with copper clamps, and the pipes have pipe insulation on them. We remodeled this bath a couple years ago, so that's how I know.

I also know that the toilet in the said bathroom occasionally runs for a few seconds, like the stopper mechanism needs to be replaced. Don't know if that's relevant or not.

Please, please help me solve this. Thanks.

JD
 
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Would the ventilation pipe play into this? Might ought to see whether it's been blocked by anything. But it sounds like air in line to me. :scratch2:
 
I'm no plumber, but it's just about a cinch that it's air- not much else to cause that kind of issue...as for how to cure it, sheesh, if opening up all the feed lines and letting them run doesn't cure it, you may end up having to call the guy with butt-crack-wearing jeans in...
 
To get rid of air in the lines do the following:
1. Shut off the main supply to the house.
2. Open every valve(faucet, etc.) on the house inside and out. Let all the water drain out.
3. Close all the valves
4. Turn the water back on, slowly, and test the system.
 
FWIW:

EDIT:
I just saw your additional edit:
"I also know that the toilet in the said bathroom occasionally runs for a few seconds, like the stopper mechanism needs to be replaced. Don't know if that's relevant or not."

THATS the smoking GUN!!! Do the toilet mechanism..... it's worn out and the flapper leak agravated the valve problem....
END of EDIT:

I think the easiest quick test would be to turn off the shutoff valve on that downstairs bathroom toilet and then try the trigger of shuting off the water in the shower in the upstairs Master Bath.

There was an ask this old house episode a while back where the toilet fill valve made noise that showed up all over the system when there were pressure surges in the plumbing, it was solved by replacing the toilet fill/flush assembly. $10-20 or so...

At work years back a new plumbing addition had terrible water hammer problems where the urinal flushes started an oscillation of reflected pressure waves that would would CONTINUE until someone flushed the conventional toilet(s), I suspect that the flush valves on the toilets got the hammer pulse and got wacky somehow because I found that if the toilets shutoff valves were CLOSED it NEVER happened... (did it after hours, I had a key)

As for the anti-hammer chambers (as opposed to just a "vertical pipe stub with air") above the individual fixture valves, I'm not sure how to get the water out of them beyond draining and refilling the pipes. Perhaps a little banging on each valve to try to break any vacuum or surface tension??

In my place a while back, I "drained" the system by turning off the incoming water at the meter and then opening EVERY water outlet, hot and cold, in the system on every level including the outside hose connections.
I went gonzo at the time and drained the water heater as well. Those pipes were as empty as I could get them.

Good Luck!!!
 
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hakka26 said:
To get rid of air in the lines do the following:
1. Shut off the main supply to the house.
2. Open every valve(faucet, etc.) on the house inside and out. Let all the water drain out.
3. Close all the valves
4. Turn the water back on, slowly, and test the system.
Click to expand...


Thanks, I'll try this again. One further question though.

When I tried this before, the only thing I didn't turn back on at the same time was my sprinkler/irrigation system for my yard. It is self-draining when not in use (i.e. I never have to try and drain it in the winter). I have a computer irrigation system with 12 zones, and about 75 sprinkler heads. Should I bleed the system again, including turning on the sprinkler system?

And does it matter what order I turn everything back on?

JD
 
Sprinkler system doesn't matter.
No, it doesn't matter where you start as long as all the water is drained out of the house. If water gets into an air gap it is impossble to get it out while the main supply is on.
 
Jeff, do you have a vegetable garden? Could be a leek there! :rofl:

Alan(Helpful as always)

A
 
Here's a site that explains what I thing is happening pretty well along with some solutions.

http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/PipeNoises.htm

Im a project manager for a gen. contractor, we specialize in remodel and lead abatement for the most part. You can find "hammer arresters" at your local Home Depot or plumbing store for that matter. or if you have 1/2" copper lines, just make your own out of a copper tee and a length of 1/2" and a cap. Cut the line to allow for the fitting and sweat on the new connection.

You might want to turn the water off first though. :D

RC
 
doucanoe said:
Here's a site that explains what I thing is happening pretty well along with some solutions.

http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/PipeNoises.htm

RC
Click to expand...
That was a GREAT link and well worth the read!!!

They have a second link in that article which gets more technical
more technical second link repeated here
But is equally worth the time to read, JD once you read these two your problems are all but solved...

I even learned (or re-learned?? :withstpd: ) a few things.... highly reccommended!!!

Thanks a million doucanoe !!!!
 
Mark,
Ive been in the construction and materials business for almost 20yrs now and I still learn something new every day! :)

RC
 
Wow! I guess somebody must work in the trade as these suggestions are rather invasive and costly as air gaps go inside walls on the supply lines. If they are already in place all the hoopla about replacing them with these news engineered airgaps is fine to make a couple bucks but if draining and bleeding the system solves the problem then it seems the big bad bacteria monster will get you. Oops waitaminit here, give me a call then I guess I get to use my degree in construction tech and my contractor's license to bleed a couple bucks as well as your pipes.
Bleed the system first if that doesn't work then there is a problem that needs further assessment. In the time it takes me to explain a thermonuclear reaction and it's resultant radiation you're going to be sunburned.
 
I had a similar air in the lines episode yesterday, just like last time in 2002, after paying a well driller to drop the pump another 20' I discovered the whole problem was the air pressure in the well pressure tanks bladder had dropped. I drained the pressure tank of water, then put an air guage on the air valve for the bladder, it was 12 pounds low. My well runs on a range of 40 - 60 punds, I filled it to 40 PSI and my problem is solved, when the sprinklers ran at night the pressure dropped below the pressure tanks range and air would get in, filling the air bladder to the correct pressure solved the problem. Some pumps require 2 pounds below the cycling PSI, mine needed to be the same, good luck, Dave. :yes:

Bladder Tanks

Bladder Tanks 2
 
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Wow! I guess somebody must work in the trade as these suggestions are rather invasive and costly as air gaps go inside walls on the supply lines. If they are already in place all the hoopla about replacing them with these news engineered airgaps is fine to make a couple bucks but if draining and bleeding the system solves the problem then it seems the big bad bacteria monster will get you. Oops waitaminit here, give me a call then I guess I get to use my degree in construction tech and my contractor's license to bleed a couple bucks as well as your pipes.
Click to expand...

Well, you can try the "air bleeding" thing and if that dosent work or the problem returns, which more than likely it will. You can try another approach. Fix the problem instead of a bandaid solution.

Usually people have one water source and feed lines after the water heater that continue on to the rest of the home. Your utility area is usually accessable (unfinished/exposed lines) and you can try to solve the problem there. Every home is similar but each is different. You might want to consult with someone well versed in plumbing in your area to find out where the best location of a "hammer arrester" for your situation.
Many times your local DIY center will have a "plumbing" guy.

Cost for bleeding lines $0.00
Cost for consult with "plumbing" guy at local DIY center $0.00
Cost for Hammer arrester (s) DIY version $10.00 Maybe!!
Cost of tools needed (borrow or you already own) $0.00
Cost of your own time Priceless
__________________________________________________________
Total cost of project $ @10.00 + gas
I should warn you that even a small project like this will more than likely require (2) trips to the DIY center. Dont ask me why, it just seems to work out that way. :D

More aggravation than spendy I would say.
 
Air gaps, arresters or whatever you want to call them or use are site specific. You don't crawl into an attic or basement pick a line and do an installation. If it were that easy I'd say thread a scuba tank onto a supply line-that should take care of the whole house. But, they are intalled near a faucet or supply valve (i.e. angle stop at toilet) and preferably in the wall. Should have been done during construction.
Drain system $0.00
Install Gap/Arrester
Silver solder as most cities don't allow lead anymore $30/lb and if you have copper.
Air gap/arrester $1.00-$100.00
Spiking out a shower: Hey, it's your money/time not mine.

Of course it could also turn out to be a bad washer or the toilet valve.
 
hakka26 said:
Sprinkler system doesn't matter.
No, it doesn't matter where you start as long as all the water is drained out of the house. If water gets into an air gap it is impossble to get it out while the main supply is on.
Click to expand...

My 2 cents... if you don't have a back flow preventer for the sprinkler system, It would be the likely source for air getting into the system, and also very dangerous. Could be sucking contaminated water back into the "clean" system. Other than that, drain the whole house as stated and refill :)
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm going to research some more, and drain/bleed the system again. I'm also going to replace the toilet hardware (can't hurt, and is inexpensive). I'll see if that helps.

I'm pretty sure the sprinkler system is ok. It was installed with the house when built. It's a professional, computerized system by Hardie. I also have a computerized Rainsoft Water Softening system, but don't see how that could be affecting this problem. It too was installed with the house when built in 1996.

JD
 
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Nine to ten years for toilet hardware (the hardest working part of the plumbing system) isn't too bad..... (other than a pressure reducer)

Just curious, is your water source city water or a well?

Good Luck....
 
Little confused here. If you've already drained/bled the system the problem may lie elsewhere. Maybe, it is the toilet. Also, it's been illegal for years to install a sprinkler system without anti-siphon valves.
 
JD, got a question, Are you on city water or a well & pump system?
I'll answer my own question, so that if I'm right, you can get by a supply house and be done with it quickly. If you are on city water, I would be willing to bet you've either had a change in local pressure, or your pressure reducing valve is going, or has gone bad.

Water hammer doesn't start all by itself. It's either caused by a badly run length of pipe that (usually) causes a high spot in the line, and allows air to gather in that spot (that's why a hammer arrestor or hammer "tee" works as it allows the air to gather in a "tee" above the high spot in the run, so the hammer can be absorbed) so if it is a bad spot in the run, it would have to have been there from day one, or it could have happened as a result of a fallen or altered part of a run..

Or, more commonly it can also be caused by an increase in pressure on the line - Most city water systems vary in pressure from hour to hour and day to day, so on almost all city systems the legs of the system (which run to the individual residences) are pressure regulated to approx 70 psi. Otherwise you could get as much as 150 - 200 psi to your fixtures, and that would not be a good thing. If the pressure reducing valve is wearing out, all that should be necessary to fix it is a simple replacement that you could do yourself. Usually the PRV will be in the line before the line reaches any fixtures, often in the same box as the meter is.

Caution, tool alert - You'll have to acquire a meter key (a long rebar shaft with a folded bit of iron on one end and a wide handle on the other) to cut off the water at the meter so that you can then wrench the PRV loose and replace it. Usually a good supply house will loan you one till you get your job done... Sometimes if a thoughtful plumber installed the PRV there'll be a ball valve or gate valve cut-off just before the PRV so you won't need the meter key if that's the case. I'd take the whole PRV loose and take it to the supply house so you can get one just like it. That way you won't have to worry about it being too long or too short. I wish I was closer JD, I'd come help you myself.

If you're on a well system, all the above will not apply (as your well will be pressure regulated by the electrical pressure switch and the pump will not be allowed by the switch to pressurize any farther than 60 psi or so). If that's the case, you'll have to examine the system for any pipe run that may have changed or been altered or moved.

I wish you luck, and again, I wish I was close enough to come help. There's nothing like laying hands on something to figure it out. BTW - I worked as a plumber and supplier of plumbing parts until my health forced me to retire. This is the first time I've felt like I could be truly helpful since I joined AK. If you need to, feel free to PM me, hopefully we can get you fixed up without breaking the budget.

- Steve
 
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