Pro Audio speakers - worthwhile?

Scuzzer

Scuzzer

Fixed Bias
So I was cruising CL late last night and ran across some very cheap seemingly well made pro audio speakers. Needless to say the cash changed hands and I'm here listening to my new Bag End TA-12's. Here's a photo of one without the grills:

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They use an Electro Voice ST-350B above 3.3khz and what appears to be a fairly cheap but damn heavy Eminence(?) woofer. Here's a couple of shots of the woofer, anyone know what it is?

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The specs say 103 db 1w/1m but I doubt they're that high, prolly 95-97, max continuous sine wattage is 200w. I'm only listening to one (instead of both) right now because I'm trying to get some time on my breadboard 807 SE tube amp and I only built one channel. It's not a fair test since it only has about 10w and no feedback but it's certainly LOUD and clear. Wonder what they'll sound like on the Pioneer A-90?

Anyone know anything about Bag Ends? Any idea about the woofers? Are these poor man's Altec's worth sprucing up and using?
 
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Bag End is a reputable brand.

Don't know the specifics but the bottom line is if you like them. I think they're keepers, but don't know if there is much potential beyond what is already there.
 
Bag End is great stuff. I also like EV. Back in my sound guy days I used to set up a pair of EV PA speakers on sticks in the backyard powered by a PV PA head. I'd listen to it while doing projects outdoors like painting beat up stage monitors or cleaning beer soaked microphone cords. That little system sounded great. Very musical and clean. I also had some Bag Ends speakers very similar to yours. Not as warm, but equally musical.
 
Congratulations on your buy.

Bag End is rather well known in Pro Audio and in Sub-Woofer circles.

Very durable drivers.

I'd love to get a chance to listen to them sometime. I'm a bit south from you in Littleton.
 
Wayne1 said:
Congratulations on your buy.

Bag End is rather well known in Pro Audio and in Sub-Woofer circles.

Very durable drivers.

I'd love to get a chance to listen to them sometime. I'm a bit south from you in Littleton.
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Thanks, I think they are worth the $40 I paid. It seems that Bag End was big on time aligned drivers (hence the TA in the model #) and ELF subwoofer mating. I'd be curious to hear these mated with the s-18 subs that they were marketed with. Could be a great low budget system.

Perhaps you noticed that they have convenient handles on the top. If we ever do a Denver get together I could bring them along. I've only got about 10 projects to finish before I'd have people come here and see my mess!
 
Whoever made the woofer, likely built them to Bag End's specs, their stuff is pretty well engineered.

The price you paid is less than the cost of a diaphragm for one of those ST-350's!
 
Isotonic said:
I also had some Bag Ends speakers very similar to yours. Not as warm, but equally musical.
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I'm guessing I'm getting a bit more warmth because I'm listening to mono FM jazz through an Ampex tube tuner and my homebrew not quite finished tube amp. I'm not good with audiophile terms but I'd say "musical" is a good one to use here. I can only imagine the sound will be better in stereo with a fully dialed in amp.

Thanks for the reply.
 
bowtie427ss said:
Whoever made the woofer, likely built them to Bag End's specs, their stuff is pretty well engineered.

The price you paid is less than the cost of a diaphragm for one of those ST-350's!
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I'd guess they are spec'd for Bag since they appear to be a serious player in PA.

Too bad the EV's weren't 350 or 350a... Looks like they'd be worth a bit more (not that I bought them for resale value).
 
I have tried several consumer and pro items in my past, and the pro items in general are very well built given the intended usage. However, there may be some trade offs as well (such as excessive fan noise in some pro amps). From a design standpoint, many pro speakers are built to be tough and loud, often within a more limited bandwidth and/or at the expense of refinement (think of a Hummer compared to an Infiniti FX). You will often find "high frequency drivers" with horn structures on pro speakers (as opposed to high fidelity tweeters), many pro units are simply 2-way designs (versus 3-way), and pro units often have very protective metal grilles that can negatively affect the sound in a home environment as they block too much in terms of total surface area (not a primary issue on a stage for example). I think pro speakers are very cool myself, but I also would look into how you might be able to "refine" them for use in your home system. Items to think about include removing the grilles, and perhaps using an equalizer. One example I think quite humorous is the old "tissue mod" that was made famous for the old Yamaha NS-10 (placing a tissue over the tweeter). Good luck with those interesting speakers of yours.
 
I know exactly what those are, because I just picked up the same ones a few weeks ago. Just talked to Dan Saraceno at Bag End myself about them a couple days ago. Such a coincidence - you actually answered one of my questions by posting this - you obviously have the original Bag End setup - mine is the same thing using EV DB Sound cabinets (ST-350B and everything). Anyways, the driver is a SE-1260, and it's rated at 150 continuous, 600 watts instantaneous peak.

Great find for $40!!
 
Zilch said:
They need HF comp to play their best, but I'd say the ability of that woofer to play nicely up to 3 kHz is "dubious."
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I can't confirm the exact components used in the crossover since they're potted. They've got something about the size of 3 hockey pucks stacked together inside a cardboard tube with thick black solid tar on it. I don't know if they used the EV comp circuits or not. Heck, I don't even know if the real crossover point is 3.3khz.

I've been meaning to get an RTA type program to measure speakers, perhaps this is the excuse I need to move ahead with it. As an engineering nerd by education (and inclination) the speaker end of this hobby really pisses me off. There is no readily available technical information and even when there is you can't tell if the engineers wrote it or the marketing department massaged the numbers.
 
ckastner78 said:
I know exactly what those are, because I just picked up the same ones a few weeks ago. Just talked to Dan Saraceno at Bag End myself about them a couple days ago. Such a coincidence - you actually answered one of my questions by posting this - you obviously have the original Bag End setup - mine is the same thing using EV DB Sound cabinets (ST-350B and everything). Anyways, the driver is a SE-1260, and it's rated at 150 continuous, 600 watts instantaneous peak.

Great find for $40!!
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Cool! Thanks for the info. The only spec sheet I could find was for the TA-12C and like you confirmed I figured these to be the A or B variant. Did you happen to ask him about the crossovers? I'd like to know what's in the crossover or perhaps if these can be upgraded to the later ones. Any idea what years they made the originals? I'm guessing sometime in the 80's but I could be off by a decade...
 
Scuzzer said:
I've been meaning to get an RTA type program to measure speakers, perhaps this is the excuse I need to move ahead with it. As an engineering nerd by education (and inclination) the speaker end of this hobby really pisses me off. There is no readily available technical information and even when there is you can't tell if the engineers wrote it or the marketing department massaged the numbers.
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I certainly share your frustration, as is evident in much of what I do and post. This is NOT rocket science, and just about anybody can do it with readily available knowledge and minimal investment in measurement gear.

[RANT]

As example, how come it took 30 years to figure out the basics of Minimus 7? I mean, it's just an inductor and a cap! When I research on the web, mostly what I find is misinformation and speculative blather, and when I post the facts to correct some of that, I get a rash of poop for the effort? :dunno:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=136425

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=107075&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

[/RANT]
 
Scuzzer said:
Thanks, I think they are worth the $40 I paid. It seems that Bag End was big on time aligned drivers (hence the TA in the model #) and ELF subwoofer mating. I'd be curious to hear these mated with the s-18 subs that they were marketed with. Could be a great low budget system.

Perhaps you noticed that they have convenient handles on the top. If we ever do a Denver get together I could bring them along. I've only got about 10 projects to finish before I'd have people come here and see my mess!
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Check the price those tweets go for....I believe they alone are worth far more than 40 bucks, so regardless, good find!

Russellc
 
ckastner78 said:
Just found this:

http://www.bagend.com/bagend/downloads/ta12jr-c.pdf

I think that's the same one .. looks like it's crossed over at 2.5 KHz. I didn't ask about the crossovers but I think I might have different ones. Mine is the same thing - cardboard outer ring covered in resin, but it looks like a single large double-diameter hockey puck.
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That's the jr. variant. Just below it on the legacy info page is

http://www.bagend.com/bagend/downloads/ta12-c.pdf

which is the C variant. We have the same crossovers, an extra large hockey puck looking resin covered thingy.
 
Zilch said:
I certainly share your frustration, as is evident in much of what I do and post. This is NOT rocket science, and just about anybody can do it with readily available knowledge and minimal investment in measurement gear.

[RANT]

As example, how come it took 30 years to figure out the basics of Minimus 7? I mean, it's just an inductor and a cap! When I research on the web, mostly what I find is misinformation and speculative blather, and when I post the facts to correct some of that, I get a rash of poop for the effort? :dunno:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=136425

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=107075&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

[/RANT]
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I've done the same thing before, who cares what cretans think. In my case, I had just located a nice Infinity Black Widow tonearm, and was searching the various forums when I came upon some befuddled person basically saying that no cartridges were made for it anymore! Its awful to think anyone seeking info on this arm would be led right to this gross misinformation. Like you, I posted a "correction" and am glad I did. There is no end of people who know nothing about a topic, yet voice a very strong, yet totally baseless opinion....And, no end of those seeking info that read this crap.

Russellc
 
Zilch said:
As example, how come it took 30 years to figure out the basics of Minimus 7? I mean, it's just an inductor and a cap! When I research on the web, mostly what I find is misinformation and speculative blather, and when I post the facts to correct some of that, I get a rash of poop for the effort? :dunno:
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Exactly! If there is that much conflicting info on such a simple speaker it's almost impossible to determine who's right when you're talking about a diy BLH or TL design for an old alnico driver with high unit to unit variation. I really don't want to blow a weekend or two building large complex cabs only to find out they sound worse than the $3 Scott S-10's I picked up at the thrift.

At least when building a tube amp you can start with a sound scientific baseline and easily tweak component values after listening. You can also recycle the components into new breadboard amps when the urge strikes. What am I going to do with 6' tall BIB cabinets when I decide that my POC (pile o' cock) AN 8's don't sound that great in them?
 
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