Rule for cartridge upgrade???

SkyLounger

SkyLounger

Super Member
According to you, what would be an "acceptable" maximum percentage of money to pay for a cartridge over the tt's worth not to get past the point of diminishing return and having to upgrade the tt itself?

In other words, how much money can one spend on a cart above the tt's price and still be able to justify it, soundwise? (if there's such a thing)
 
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Best bet for a premium cartridge at low cost pick up a V15RS body ( same as the V15xMR) and get a Jico MicroRidge or SAS stylus for it. For about $150 dollars you'll have a combination thats unbeatable for the cost and hard to match at any price.
 
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kconnor said:
Best bet for a premium cartridge at low cost pick up a V15RS body ( same as the V15xMR) and get a Jico MicroRidge or SAS stylus for it. For about $170 dollars you'll have a combination thats unbeatable for the cost and hard to match at any price.
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i'm sure it's good, but "hard to match at any price"?
 
I don't think you can pin it down based on what the turntable is worth. As an example, something like the Marantz 6300 gets a major portion of its worth from the looks and the Marantz name. However, if you went by new list prices I'd say a cartridge that lists for as much as the turntable is likely well into the range of diminishing returns. About half the value of the turntable makes sense to me...or even a third.
 
Bob_in_OKC said:
However, if you went by new list prices I'd say a cartridge that lists for as much as the turntable is likely well into the range of diminishing returns. About half the value of the turntable makes sense to me...or even a third.
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Exactly the kind of reply I was looking for...

In that case, to apply that rule to a vintage tt (the Marantz in your example), would you use an "inflation calculator" to get an updated list price and choose a cart accordingly? How much would too much be, in your opinion of course?
 
I have a HOMC Sumiko on a Pioneer PL-516. The Sumiko is probably worth 3 times the table, but it sound 10 times better than using some formula to end up with some lame $50 cart.

If your table spins well, and has a decent arm, spend what you can afford. If your table is an issue, better hold off and upgrade.
 
I think there are too many variables to make a very consistent rule, but I'd say a cartridge could cost twice as much as it's table and still be a good match.
 
Worst case, if you buy a pricey cartridge and then decide you're past the point of diminishing return on your turntable, when you do eventually get a better turntable you can move the cartridge over to it.

About ten years ago I was getting back into playing my record collection regularly and decided I wanted something better than whatever cartridge was on the yard sale/thrift store turntables I had. I got a Grado Blue for $80, it seemed sort-of okay, though it seemed I was trying justify thinking that it sounded good. But I remembered records sounding better on good systems I used to hear. I saw a recommendation for the AT440ML for $100, bought it, and was SHOCKED at how much better my records sounded. They were much more comparable (in a good way) to CD's. I ordered a 78 stylus for the Grado and have since used it only for 78's.

So I think there's no telling, and I wouldn't go by any "formula" as far as price.
 
The turntable and arm limit the capability of any cartridge installed, so I think the first question is whether a person's current combination is going to be capable of satisfying them. For example, after hearing an LP12/Basik Plus, with the free cartridge it came with, I found my Thorens TD146 incapable of satisfying me no matter how costly a cartridge was intalled. On the other hand, just about any cheap cartridge makes satisfying music when installed on the Linn because it extracts more of what a cartridge is capable of than lesser designs. In my opinion, it is silly to buy anything other than a budget cartridge until a person is sure that their turntable and arm are capable of the performance they desire; the money they would spend on expensive cartridges is better saved toward bettering their 'table/arm.

edit: That's not to say it's not worth experimenting with different budget cartridges to find one that better matches your current equipment and taste. Budget models (under $100) from Audio Technica, Shure, Ortofon, Grado, Sumiko, etc,. all have different attributes that could make them preferred for a particular installation or listener. I just wouldn't be spending multiple hundreds of dollars on a cartridge til I'm satisfied that my 'table and arm are going to meet my needs long term. In fact, what I've found is that with an adequate turntable and arm, I don't need to spend big bucks on a cartridge to get the sound quality I'm after.
 
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IMO there is no such thing as " diminishing returns", how could it be?
If the cartridge is better this part of the system will influence less and the total sound will also be better.

What I mean is the cartridge will always contribute less and less to the total distortion, and this will always be fully heard.

Another thing completely is that it is seldom done so that one have a very expensive cart and a lowcost tt. But that depends on other decisions, not that you won´t hear if a cartridge is better with a chep tt.

gusten
 
nu2toobs said:
i'm sure it's good, but "hard to match at any price"?
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V15 V cartridges with the factory MR styli have measurable performance that is approached by only a hand full of cartridges even to this day. The JICO replacement micro ridge and SAS styli are just as good if not better. The V15V cartridges possess almost unparalleled tracking ability, flat frequency response and very low distortion. Personally, I believe in performance that can be quantified through measurement. $10,000 cartridges carved out of Japanese Katsura with coils hand wound by Snow Monkeys are the ultimate in snake oil.
 
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I believe the question needs to be answered for each turntable.

And of course, most importantly, cantilever compliance has to work with the arm mass. If this isn't right, you could be wasting a lot of money.

In my personal experience, although I never got there, I might have put a $250 low compliance cart on my old Pioneer PL-550. A 'table that currently sells for between $5 and $200.

I feel I reached the cartridge ceiling at around $250 with the AT150MLx on my Rega planar 2 (RB250 Incognito arm). The increased performance of the $400 ATOC9 MLII I replaced it with was lost on the Rega. (The Rega by the way has a current value around $400, but was $500 new add to that $350 in upgrades.)

The OC9 is now on my Well Tempered. This 'table now sells used for %650- $1k, but was $2,500 new. I think the OC9 is just at the bottom of "appropriate" for the Well Tempered. Most people I read about have $1,200+ carts on this 'table.

So, I guess, experience has left me with the thought that a cart costing about the same as the 'table is a good balance. But my opinion may change over time.

Of course, all this is dependent on having downstream electronics that re sensitive enough to reveal the differences in cart/table matching. I mean, if you've got a $50 phono amp, I don't think it makes sense to mount a $1,200 cartridge on a $2,000 table etc, etc.....
 
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In considering the quality of a turntable and tonearm, its not what you pay for them at a yardsale, rather its the build quality. Can the turntable and arm adequately display all the qualities that an esoteric cartridge can achieve? Some can, and you can't even go by what the turntable cost when new, as when turntables were mass produced there were some very fine units made that NOW with low production volume would cost 4 to 10 times as much for the same unit did when new 20 to 40 years ago. In addition, cartridges, even lower-cost ones, are BETTER than they were 30-40 years ago by far, and can greatly improve the sound from a vintage turntable.
 
Just like any consumable item, spend no more on a cartridge than necessary, using a cartridge that's not commensurate with the rest of your gear is a waste, every time you play it you'll be wasting the extra capability and worse still paying for it in costlier stylus wear.
 
its only my personal opinion but it depends on how well engineered( or tweaked) your turntable and tonearm is.. how good a mechanical match you can achieve between arm and cartridge and, to no lesser degree, how well isolated your whole analog rig is from external and internal vibrations that have nothing to do with the modulations in the record groove..

a cartridge is important,make no mistake...but the number one detriment to its ability to deliver what it is capable of... is unwanted vibration..from turntable,from the tonearm, from external sources... even from within the cartridge and record itself..
make those unwanted vibrations as low as possible to begin with, and your cartridge...regardless of budget, has an easier time doing exactly what it was designed to do... trace the record groove as accurately as possible and convert that mechanical information into as accurate an electrical signal as possible...

putting ferrari bridgestone tyres onto Lada is a waste of a good tyre imho..:D
 
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SkyLounger said:
Exactly the kind of reply I was looking for...

In that case, to apply that rule to a vintage tt (the Marantz in your example), would you use an "inflation calculator" to get an updated list price and choose a cart accordingly? How much would too much be, in your opinion of course?
Click to expand...

I don't think an inflation calculator would produce a relevant result. Inflation has affected different products differently. It's hard enough to relate quality to price in new equipment...and probably even harder to relate it to vintage equipment. However, if just for grins we apply it to the 6300, its $249 list price in 1975 equates to around $1,000 in today's money. Not likely I'd spend one-third of that amount on a cartridge for it. For less than one-fourth that I could have a Nagaoka MP-150, Audio-Technica AT440MLa, Ortofon 2M Blue, Grado Gold, Goldring 2400 or 1022, Denon DL-160...all more than capable enough for the 6300...although, some of those do list for higher and might actually fall in that range of one-third to one-half.
 
There is no formula that I can think of that could be used as a yardstick. Too many variables, a person has to use some common sense. I have tried many configurations in the last few years and never thought I would have settled on my current front end. There are plenty of budget cartridges that will do fine on that turntable. If your phonostage is part of a component that does a half dozen other things, chances are it was an afterthought when manufactured.
 
No particular expert of mathematics, but as was said earlier there is no downside to buying a better cart than the table. I have a couple of carts I purchased new and have been using off and on for over 30 years. One is about to be retired, but the other has plenty of life in it. The tables have gone UP and down currently in the middle ground but the cart always stays good. If I had it to do over again I wouldn't change a thing other than to have held onto my MA 2002. I think I left it on an SL1200 that I sold. back in the late 80's
 
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