SA-9500 Bias Adjustment

the_burmese

Active Member
Trying to adjust bias after power amp board AWH-041 recap. all settings are ok but the bias across pin #12 and 13 is stuck at zero no matter how much VR3 is changed. The bias across pin #9 and 10 is responding to adjustments on VR1.

Where should I focus on? Should I try switching the STV4H from R to L and see if that helps? I have ordered the trim pot replacement to see if the pot is the issue.

Thanks!
 
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Uh oh, tread lightly here. the q9 & Q11 voltages are what?

Recap? WHAT about the troublemaker transistors? Q7 & Q8 could be the dreaded 2sc1451's.
 
Hi Mark
Yes, I am really at the end of my wits about it. The reason I am working to readjust the bias is due to a full recap on the board.
Q7 and Q8 are 2SC1628s and they have been replaced with KSC3503DSTU ( after adjusting for pin order).

I haven't measured the voltages on Q9 and Q11. Do you mean the input voltages at the base? I should measure between the base and the GND, right? As described below -

bias2.png
 
bias.png

Measured the voltages on Q5 and Q7. The output voltages are definitely wrong. Please see attached schematics for notations. In comparison, Q6 and Q7 are all look ok. (Just the input rail looks higher than spec.)
 
One more thing I just noticed is that the Q6 output voltage starts at 1.2v when initial power is applied. Then it goes up to 12v and settle back down to 9v AFTER relay kicks in.
 
Check if Q5 is heating up quickly.

Check if Q5 & Q7 are installed correctly, perhaps close up pictures might help
BUT the BEST reference is the other WORKING channel.

You may not be able to control idle current, but can you control DC offset voltage on the duff channel?
 
Q5 is warm to touch until a few mins after power on. One clarification I need to make is that BOTH channels produce sound. In a way, they are BOTH working.
The issue with the left channel is that there is a distortion at higher volume, especially after output voltage reaches about 900mV.

I can set the VR1 and VR2 to zero the offset in both channels. I just couldn't set the VR3 to set the 20mV DC offset for left channel. I can set 20mV offset in the right channel with VR4.

Please refer to close up pictures below -

Left Channel with issue

IMG-2505.jpg


Right channel without issue



IMG-2506.jpg
 
This amplifier "topology" is class AB which means that it transitions from Class A to Class B, and idle current is used to minimize "crossover" distortion.

Your amp's feedback system strives mightily to operate, and in Class A it succeeds.
HOWEVER
The Class B part of the system isn't completely working.

That Class B is push pull operation, half working above zero volts, the other half working below zero volts.

I suspect Q11 the former 2sb536 (what is it now?) or it's circuitry which includes the two 2sb541 outputs is borked.

Pop out Q11 and test it thoroughly. You COULD swap it with Q12 and see if the problem swaps channels.
I would check the diodes and resistors around them as well - ESPECIALLY if Q11 was new and they weren't.

BE CAREFUL - DIAL VR3 BACK DOWN TO ZERO OHMS BEFORE ENGAGING POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You don't want it to come on, working correctly but with a blisteringly hot setting!!!
 
Q11 was replaced with ksa940tu. I also replaced both D9 and C18. The only things that weren't replaced are those white cement resistors around it.
I swapped the Q11 but the issue is still there.

One more note. I observed that the power supply on Pin 7 was 52.5v ad Pin 17 was -52v. I went into the power supply board AWR-075 and adjust VR1 and VR2 so they are now reading close to +/- 48v.

That makes output of Q5, at power on, to be stable at ~1.2v similar to that on the good channel. HOWEVER it fluctuate based on input frequency. Low freq high voltage signals could drive this node up to 18v!! But once the music stops it settles back down to 1.2v target.
The output node on Q6 is stable at 1.2v independent of the input signal.

I will try to swap the two 2sb541 tonight and report back.

Appreciate your insights!
 
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Tried swapping 2sb541 Q17 and Q19 but no difference. Left is still distorted and right is good.

But I noticed the following.
Good channel - base voltage for 2sb541 is -0.6v and +0.5v on 2sd388 output transistors, even when music is playing.
Bad channel - 2sb541 base voltage is about -0.5v but it fluctuate between ( -0.5v to +4v) when music is played. base voltage on 2sd388 pair starts around +0.1v but only goes up to +0.2v when music is played.

I have not tried swapping the dreaded STV-4H. I also have not tried replacing the 0.5ohm cement resistors.
But it appears that the DC output on Q7 is signal level dependent. Q7 needs constant current and if D5 is not working well, then the bias would fluctuate and Q7 could fall out of saturation.

Just my theory. Please let me know what you think.
 
Do I see a replaced trimmer on the suspect channel?
Center wiper not contacting as it should?

Just a thought, and I dont have the silk infront of me to I'd the vr locations
 
You are just confusing yourself making measurements when pushing program audio through the amp. DON'T.

You will NOT run the amplifiers into speakers (OR headphones) during these tests:

You WILL individually remove each output transistor from the duff channel and test each of them with the six way diode test.
You WILL then test to be sure that each 0.5 ohm emitter resistor connected to that output transistor is intact
You WILL then test to be sure that each 4.7 ohm base resistor connected to that output transistor is intact.

With all output transistors removed from the duff channel, you will power it up to run DC balance tests.
The driver transistors Q9 & Q11 along with R41 will ensure that the DC balance is adjustable, and you should adjust the DC balance to 0.000v

At that point measure referenced to ground the emitter base and collector voltages of EVERY transistor, and post them.
You CAN use the good channel's voltages at those points as examples of correct voltages.

You could do a shortcut (dangerous) when you have the +9v and +6v as in your earlier post - with NO audio, and check for 0.6v between each transistor's emitter(black dmm lead) and base (red dmm lead).
positive 0.6v for npn transistors, negative 0.6v for pnp transistors.
That should be the case for the operating channel, but NOT for the duff channel.
When you find the error, you will probably find either a shorted output transistor, as well as an open 4.7 ohm resistor, or an open 0.5 ohm resistor.

LEAVE the STV-4h / VR3 ALONE, that 9v to 6v reading shows that it is doing it's job.

Done accurately - these voltages will tell me many things.

Tip: when measuring voltages around the current source (Q5, Q6) don't reference to ground, connect the black dmm lead to the +48v pin 7 power rail.
The numbers may be negative, but they will be of the correct magnitude and precision.
 
Hi Mark

Thanks for clarifications! Below are measurements made -

Six way diode test on all output transistors on the bad channel

upload_2020-10-18_14-21-8.png

R53 0.7ohm
R57 0.8ohm
R51 0.7ohm
R55 0.8ohm

R43 OL
R45 65k ohm

R47 5.0 ohm
R49 4.8 ohm

Since R43 and R45 are bad, I have not done the next set of tests as you requested. I currently don't have 4.7ohm 1w replacement.
Do you think it is ok to temporarily use a regular 4.7ohm 1/4w resistor to get the additional test data?

Also, is it ok to replace with 4.7ohm 2W? What should be the temp coefficient of them? I dont see much information in service manual about temp coefficient spec.

Appreciate it!
 
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There may be some intent for these 4.7 ohm resistors to act as fuses, so I would NOT get 2 watt resistors as replacements.

4.7 ohm 1/4 watt ONLY FOR NO-LOAD TESTING. I expect this edict to be ignored, and severe damage will be incurred by those who do. You EARNED it!!!

resistor: metal film 4.7 ohms 1 watt RN1H 4R7K.

(that K means 10%)


Look up top at the "stickies" - "Pioneer Tuning Fork Service Guide", the actual FIRST post has the small resistor guide. Read it.
Post 66 has almost 400 megabytes of Tuning Fork, post 69 has an index another member made.
This is the stuff that "us" restorers study as "holy writ"....
 
Understood. Ordered 1 watt replacement as you indicated.
Will wait until the right parts come in for additional steps. I am just a beginner "hobbyist" so this is no place for me to ignore any warnings. :no:
Appreciate your guidance, as always.
 
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One thing to clarify. I couldn't find 4.7ohm 1 W with 10% tolerance and 100ppm/C anywhere.
So I decided to order 5% with 250ppm/C instead. I plotted the tolerance and temp coefficient min and max over 25 to 80 deg and found that 5% 250ppm is closer to nominal.
IMHO, the closer the value over temp to nominal, the better for the performance.

upload_2020-10-19_11-25-34.png
 
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Got the package from Mouser today. Replaced the 4.7ohm's and the bias adjustment worked flawlessly! :banana:

VR1 adjust
IMG-2580.jpg

VR3 adjust
IMG-2582.jpg


VR2 adjust
IMG-2581.jpg

VR4 adjust
IMG-2583.jpg

The distortion is the left channel is all gone. :jump:

Put back together and tested for a couple of hours

IMG-2587.jpg


Now it is back to where it belongs ...

IMG-2588.jpg

Really appreciate your guidance, Mark. Would not have been possible without your help. :bowdown:
 
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