Sansui 441 Troubleshooting Help Please

Joe Nardy

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I'm working on a Sansui 441 for a friend. He picked it up somewhere untested. The problem it has is that the right channel is (almost) dead. I say almost because there is a tiny bit of output if the volume is cranked to max. The problem occurs regardless of input and happens on both A and B speaker outputs. All controls (treble, bass, balance, function selector, volume) have been cleaned with DeOxit and appear to be functioning properly.

When I opened it up and saw STK-016 outputs I suspected one of them had gone bad. With fingers crossed hoping I wouldn't blow up the good one I swapped them. The problem stayed with the right channel. I found a function generator app for my Android phone and have been troubleshooting with an oscilloscope. I can see where the signal gets lost, I'm just at a loss as to why. I can see a good sine wave from the signal generator from the input all the way to pin 6 of both STK-016's. At pin 6 the amplitude varies with volume adjustments and is pretty even between left and fight channels. Looking at the schematic, it looks like pin 2 is the output and goes pretty much directly to the speaker output connectors. On the right (good) channel I see a good sine wave with significantly increased amplitude compared to pin 6 that varies with volume adjustment as would be expected. On the left (bad) channel I see no sine wave except for a very small amplitude signal with the volume at max.

Just to verify I swapped the STKs again and still have the same symptom. Regardless of STK placement the left channel is bad. I'm stumped on this and cant figure out what might be killing the left output other than the STK itself. Any suggestions as to how I can further troubleshoot this would be greatly appreciated. I tried to attach the schematic but it's too large to attach. It's available on Hifi Engine.

Thanks,
Joe
 
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I'm working on a Sansui 441 for a friend. He picked it up somewhere untested. The problem it has is that the left channel is (almost) dead. I say almost because there is a tiny bit of output if the volume is cranked to max. The problem occurs regardless of input and happens on both A and B speaker outputs. All controls (treble, bass, balance, function selector, volume) have been cleaned with DeOxit and appear to be functioning properly.

When I opened it up and saw STK-016 outputs I suspected one of them had gone bad. With fingers crossed hoping I wouldn't blow up the good one I swapped them. The problem stayed with the left channel. I found a function generator app for my Android phone and have been troubleshooting with an oscilloscope. I can see where the signal gets lost, I'm just at a loss as to why. I can see a good sine wave from the signal generator from the input all the way to pin 6 of both STK-016's. At pin 6 the amplitude varies with volume adjustments and is pretty even between left and fight channels. Looking at the schematic, it looks like pin 2 is the output and goes pretty much directly to the speaker output connectors. On the right (good) channel I see a good sine wave with significantly increased amplitude compared to pin 6 that varies with volume adjustment as would be expected. On the left (bad) channel I see no sine wave except for a very small amplitude signal with the volume at max.

Just to verify I swapped the STKs again and still have the same symptom. Regardless of STK placement the left channel is bad. I'm stumped on this and cant figure out what might be killing the left output other than the STK itself. Any suggestions as to how I can further troubleshoot this would be greatly appreciated. I tried to attach the schematic but it's too large to attach. It's available on Hifi Engine.

Thanks,
Joe
Double check the fuse to the broken STK, sounds like it may just not be getting power.
 
Certainly check F02, below is the STK's equivalent circuit. Suggest checking the DC voltages corresponding at each pin.
Please don't probe pins, measure at connected component. Switching modules suggests the STK is ok, maybe a leaking
cap in the f/back paths. Check solder joints on these caps, consider replacing caps C36, 38, 40, 42.

upload_2019-5-20_9-2-2.png
 
Thanks for the suggestions. Results posted below....

Double check the fuse to the broken STK, sounds like it may just not be getting power.

Fuses F01 and F02 continuity verified with multimeter. Swapped fuses. Verified DC voltage (46 volts) to ground on both sides of both fuses, also 46 volts at pin 3 of IC03 and IC04 (STK-016).



Certainly check F02, below is the STK's equivalent circuit. Suggest checking the DC voltages corresponding at each pin.
Please don't probe pins, measure at connected component. Switching modules suggests the STK is ok, maybe a leaking
cap in the f/back paths. Check solder joints on these caps, consider replacing caps C36, 38, 40, 42.

DC voltages on STK-016- unit powered on, volume at 0, no input signal:

IC03 (Left)
Pin 1 - 0
Pin 2 - 22.2
Pin 3 - 45.5
Pin 4 - 40
Pin 5 - 15.45
Pin 6 - 2.6
Pin 7- .111
Pin 8 - 1.999
Pin 9 - 10.94
Pin 10 - .965

IC04 (Right)
Pin 1 - 0
Pin 2 - 18.2
Pin 3 - 45.6
Pin 4 - 39.0
Pin 5 - 15.44
Pin 6 - 2.68
Pin 7 - .080
Pin 8 - 2.08
Pin 9 - 12.24
Pin 10 - .993

I'm going to start pulling the recommended caps. I'll check with my cheap component tester. If I don't find anything conclusive I'll swap with the corresponding caps from working channel.

Thanks again for the help!

Joe
 
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Okay, it looks like issue #1 is resolved. Per @mbz I started checking capacitors. Since the STK voltages were somewhat different on pin 9 I first checked C38. My component tester called it a resistor or 'no, unknown, or damaged part' depending on how the leads were connected. I pulled C37 (matching cap for good channel) and tested. It displayed as 'Capacitor' with value close to rated 100uF. I swapped the caps and the problem changed sides. Luckily I had a suitable capacitor so I replaced the bad one and both channels now work........sort of.

Somehow I seem to have induced another problem. Now both channels work on Phono, Aux, or Tape Monitor but I have no output when switched to AM or FM. The service manual has a troubleshooting chart that says if both AM and FM are inoperative to check for 12 volts on pins 20 & 21 on tuner board. Sure enough I don't have 12 volts on those pins. It also says 'Defective power supply section' which seems to be the case. I don't have the schematic skills to figure out the power supply. It looks like I should check TR05, TR06, and maybe TR07?

Thanks a million for the help so far, can anyone point me in the right direction to troubleshoot this new issue?

Thanks,
Joe
 
Tr05/06 and associated parts make up the regulated supply for the tuner. Check the DCV on all three legs of TR05 to get started. TR07 is part of a capacitance multiplier not associated with the tuner.

Craig
 
Tr05/06 and associated parts make up the regulated supply for the tuner. Check the DCV on all three legs of TR05 to get started. TR07 is part of a capacitance multiplier not associated with the tuner.

Craig

Thanks Craig. DC voltages:
TR05:
B = 0V
C = 40V
E = 0V

TR06:
B = 0V
C = 40V
E = 0v

Both TR05 and TR06 test as good NPN transistors on component tester.

Thanks again. Any suggestions for next steps?

Joe
 
The Zener diode, D03, shorted? C51 or C52 could be shorted also but not the usual failure mode for capacitors. Yes capacitors do short but I'd bet on the Zener.
 
The Zener diode, D03, shorted? C51 or C52 could be shorted also but not the usual failure mode for capacitors. Yes capacitors do short but I'd bet on the Zener.

Yep, you would win that bet. Thank you VERY much for your help. Now, if you don't mind........can you help me find a suitable replacement zener diode? The parts list specifies RD-13E-C. I found another thread about a Sansui AU-7700 that needed the same diode. There were a couple replies that included links to Mouser equivalents. They're both in stock at Mouser and also dirt cheap.

Thanks again,
Joe

13V
Forward Current IF=200 mA
Power Dissipation P=500 mW

An additional suffix (B, B1, B2, B3) would indicate a certain voltage spread.

These or these would do.

It's an RD13E suffix B zener diode which is a 13V 1/2W zener with a min/max Vz of 12.18V-13.62V

The BZX79-B (2% tolerance) is a good choice.
 
Any 13V 1/2W Zener should do, I stock 1N5243B myself.

Craig

Thank you yet again. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help. I have ordered some of the zeners from Mouser. I will update this thread when I get the order and install in the unit.

Joe
 
Got the Mouser order this afternoon. Installed 1N5243B Zener diode. Unit is now fully functional! Thanks to all who replied with suggestions, especially @llwhtt who graciously guided me through all issues to completion.

It's awesome that all of you offer help to a novice like me who would be helpless without the assistance. My buddy will be very happy and I'm sure he'll offer his thanks as well.

Joe
 
Thanks for the suggestions. Results posted below....



Fuses F01 and F02 continuity verified with multimeter. Swapped fuses. Verified DC voltage (46 volts) to ground on both sides of both fuses, also 46 volts at pin 3 of IC03 and IC04 (STK-016).





DC voltages on STK-016- unit powered on, volume at 0, no input signal:

IC03 (Left)
Pin 1 - 0
Pin 2 - 22.2
Pin 3 - 45.5
Pin 4 - 40
Pin 5 - 15.45
Pin 6 - 2.6
Pin 7- .111
Pin 8 - 1.999
Pin 9 - 10.94
Pin 10 - .965

IC04 (Right)
Pin 1 - 0
Pin 2 - 18.2pin
Pin 3 - 45.6
Pin 4 - 39.0
Pin 5 - 15.44
Pin 6 - 2.68
Pin 7 - .080
Pin 8 - 2.08
Pin 9 - 12.24
Pin 10 - .993

I'm going to start pulling the recommended caps. I'll check with my cheap component tester. If I don't find anything conclusive I'll swap with the corresponding caps from working channel.

Thanks again for the help!

Joe
Hi, just trying my luck here with this old thread as I have exactly the same situation - left channel no sound... Tried swapping STK016s, replaced all capacitors & reflowed potential cold joints on left channel, etc. Essentially, measured with oscilloscope - right channel pin6 looks normal, left channel pin6 flatline as if it is "grounded" somewhere...

Here's the reading:
PinLeft(Bad)Right(Good)
1​
0.00​
0.00​
2​
22.70​
34.20​
3​
49.20​
46.70​
4​
41.20​
44.10​
5​
15.50​
15.40​
6​
3.40​
3.22​
7​
0.14​
0.10​
8​
2.77​
2.60​
9​
7.02​
9.61​
10​
0.85​
1.17​

Anyone could suggest where else to investigate?
Thank you.
 
Hi, just trying my luck here with this old thread as I have exactly the same situation - left channel no sound... Tried swapping STK016s, replaced all capacitors & reflowed potential cold joints on left channel, etc. Essentially, measured with oscilloscope - right channel pin6 looks normal, left channel pin6 flatline as if it is "grounded" somewhere...

Here's the reading:
PinLeft(Bad)Right(Good)
1​
0.00​
0.00​
2​
22.70​
34.20​
3​
49.20​
46.70​
4​
41.20​
44.10​
5​
15.50​
15.40​
6​
3.40​
3.22​
7​
0.14​
0.10​
8​
2.77​
2.60​
9​
7.02​
9.61​
10​
0.85​
1.17​

Anyone could suggest where else to investigate?
Thank you.
It would be best to learn from a thread this old and start a new one to get help with your problem.

Some more information might help.
Was it working before , and then just quit?
If it was working did you try cleaning the switches.

Pin 6 is the input to the amp chip. You need to work backwards from there to find out where it is getting lost.
Here is a simplified flow diagram. Audio in on the left out on the right. I would start at the volume control VR01

441flow.jpg

Here is VR01. Check the green spots on the control first. they should have full level audio from the selector switches.
If you have both channels at equal levels here move on. if not the problem is in the switching.

Next check the variable outputs of the control. Volume about 1/4 of the way up you should have equal but lower levels that you had in the first step.
If you do mover forward, if not the volume control is the issue

Next green spots at the resistors are after the coupling caps into the tone circuits. You should have the same equal levels you had in the previous step.
If you do tehnwe need to move into the tone section in another post. If not then you have a bad cap.

Check and report back please.


441vol.jpg
 
It would be best to learn from a thread this old and start a new one to get help with your problem.

Some more information might help.
Was it working before , and then just quit?
If it was working did you try cleaning the switches.

Pin 6 is the input to the amp chip. You need to work backwards from there to find out where it is getting lost.
Here is a simplified flow diagram. Audio in on the left out on the right. I would start at the volume control VR01

View attachment 3617034

Here is VR01. Check the green spots on the control first. they should have full level audio from the selector switches.
If you have both channels at equal levels here move on. if not the problem is in the switching.

Next check the variable outputs of the control. Volume about 1/4 of the way up you should have equal but lower levels that you had in the first step.
If you do mover forward, if not the volume control is the issue

Next green spots at the resistors are after the coupling caps into the tone circuits. You should have the same equal levels you had in the previous step.
If you do tehnwe need to move into the tone section in another post. If not then you have a bad cap.

Check and report back please.


View attachment 3617036
Thank you mrk229.
Here's a little background:
- given this 441 from kept in storage for long time, from FB give-away page.
- can power up but no sound completely
- checked and found left channel STK016 missing, right channel fuse blown and STK016 shorted pin 1-2-3.
- bought 2x STK016, installed and right channel working, left channel no sound
- cleaned all switches and pots with contact cleaner, swapped the 2 STK016, same result - right channel working, left channel no sound.
- from this thread - replaced all the capacitors and checked resistors and diode on left channel, no difference so far.
- prior to re-installing left channel STK016, I scoped audio signal at pin6 socket - IT IS there, same level like right channel.

Here's outcome of your recommendation (I do not know what is the right method to check, so I just use the scope to probe the green spots):
- with volume knob at min, both VR1 & VR2 waves look the same visually on the scope.
- volume knob 1/4 up, about the same visually.
- on R19 & R20, waves are lower level, but increases/decreases according to volume adjustments.

If this is not the right way to check, kindly advice and I will repeat these check.
Thank you.
 
Thank you for the context. You have done a lot. Yes scope probe is correct.

We have good and equal audio levels coming out of the volume control. (blue arrows)
Now we will check the pre-tone amp.

First set of points are after C21,22. If the audio is equal in level at those points then we move to the input of the balance control.
If it is not the same there is a problem between the blue and green arrows, probably a bad transistor.

Next if audio is good are the inputs to the balance control. Other green arrows. again looking for equal levels of audio.
If good then see if you can find the ends of R45,46 by C31,32. I did not mark them on the images.



441a1.jpg
Did not notice I marked these in blue and not green. :mad: Same point different color.

441a2.jpg
 
Thank you for the context. You have done a lot. Yes scope probe is correct.

We have good and equal audio levels coming out of the volume control. (blue arrows)
Now we will check the pre-tone amp.

First set of points are after C21,22. If the audio is equal in level at those points then we move to the input of the balance control.
If it is not the same there is a problem between the blue and green arrows, probably a bad transistor.

Next if audio is good are the inputs to the balance control. Other green arrows. again looking for equal levels of audio.
If good then see if you can find the ends of R45,46 by C31,32. I did not mark them on the images.



View attachment 3617091
Did not notice I marked these in blue and not green. :mad: Same point different color.

View attachment 3617092
R33 is much lower volume than R34!
R43 is much lower volume than R44!
 
R33 is much lower volume than R34!
R43 is much lower volume than R44!
OK now we go backwards.

We know the audio at R19 and R20 is the same level and at R33 and R34 it is different. That leaves those two transistors.

Check the levels at the red box points.


441a12.jpg
 
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