Sansui 8080 in protection - basic troubleshooting steps?

There are fusible resistors that probably need replacing, and VD-1212 diodes that definitely need replacing.
There is a Service Bulletin for the 8080 & 9090, that details the modifications required for both the F-2436 driver board, and the power board. If they’re not available on the AK database, I think they are at hifiengine.
I have a 9090 on my bench right now that had had some of the mods in place already, and an 8080 the same, just a couple of months ago. I took care of the mods that weren’t in place already. The 8080 sounds great. Here’s a pic of the rebuilt driver board. The rebuilt 9090 driver board is in the background.
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The 9090 has had more issues to troubleshoot and fix.
But, it’s getting there!
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Have made several steps further into the 8080. There is a problem in addition to the broken pad/trace discussed in previous posts. I have encountered some conditions that I did not expect and could use some assistance interpreting what is going on.

The steps below describe the exact sequence I followed. Started with driver board and all four TO-3 outputs removed. No more than one change is made at each step, and if a change is made it is the first item appearing after each number. Powered down after each step:

1) ---repaired the broken pad/trace at the relay coil pin on the Protection board as discussed in posts 14 & 15 above
---with driver board and outputs still uninstalled, powered up and the amp came out of protection as expected

2) ---installed the driver board
---powered up and the amp came out of protection

If the output transistors weren't installed, the protection circuit won't see the output voltage so it will come out of protection.

3) ---installed the 4 outputs without diode testing them first (I know :rolleyes:)
---powered up and it came out of protection
---read approx 52.4 VDC on both L and R channel speaker outputs (didn't not make note of whether this voltage was + or - )
---read the same voltage (I think) from the cases of the two middle TO-3 outputs to ground, and 0 VDC to ground from cases of the other two outputs to ground
---no fuses blew while the amp was powered up under this condition

If you measured 52.4v at the speaker terminals, the protection circuit is not working. The whole purpose of the protection circuit is to prevent voltages like that from frying your speakers.

4) ---removed and diode tested the TO-3 outputs and all four tested good :dunno:

5) with outputs removed, and driver board still installed
---powered up and it came out of protection
---read -49.2 VDC at both L and R speaker outputs

If the output transistors, the ones mounted on the big heat sink on the back panel are removed there should not be any voltage at the speaker terminals. It has to go through those transistors to get to the speakers. Since the protection circuit is not detecting that voltage, you have some sort of wiring issue on the power supply board. What I don't understand is why it's shifting from a positive voltage to a negative voltage based on whether or not the outputs are installed.

6) ---removed driver board
---powered up and it came out of protection
---read 0 VDC at both L & R speaker outputs
That's what should happen with the driver board removed. The output transistors can't switch on without the signal from the driver board.

7) ---rechecked all fuses visually (previously, I had removed and continuity tested them)...and could see nothing blown

I don't understand how this situation would not have blown a fuse
Voltage and amperage are completely separate factors. You can and do have voltage but unless something is drawing more current than the rating of the fuse, it won't blow.

and why, in step 3 above, there was voltage-to-ground on only the middle two TO-3s and not the other two :dunno:
Where are you taking these measurements?

Given that the TO-3 outputs test good, and that the large DCV at the speaker outputs went away when the driver board was removed, it would seem that problem(s) has to be on the driver board. But what? Driver transistors? Fusible resistors? VD1212?
The driver board is always suspect when you have rail voltage and good output transistors. Fusible resistors and the VD1212 should be replaced regardless and you might get lucky but faults with them would kick it into protection. First step is to figure out why you have voltage at the speaker terminals with no outputs installed.

- Pete
 
Thank you for your detailed reply @LBPete


....

If the output transistors, the ones mounted on the big heat sink on the back panel are removed there should not be any voltage at the speaker terminals. It has to go through those transistors to get to the speakers. Since the protection circuit is not detecting that voltage, you have some sort of wiring issue on the power supply board. What I don't understand is why it's shifting from a positive voltage to a negative voltage based on whether or not the outputs are installed.

With the four TO-3 2sc1116 outputs removed, and with the driver board installed, there is (just measured it again) -48.8 VDC at both L&R speaker terminals.

The power supply board (F-2546) doesn't appear to have ever been worked on. I do not doubt that you are correct. But with everything appearing to be un-touched, then could it be that something has failed that is not able to be seen via visual inspection? I am not seeing anything that I would describe as a "wiring issue"...to me that implies something that has either been physically damaged or altered from original. Or perhaps I am not understanding.

I don't know for certain that the voltage is shifting from + to - . I am an ex-electrican, oriented to working in AC where polarity does not matter. From working many years only in the AC world, I have developed a bad habit of looking only at the absolute value of voltages. So I often forget the fact that when working with DC voltages polarity does matter. Those noted directly above, the -48.8 VDC, are indeed negative DCV. But the readings I took yesterday, and reported in my last post, could well have all been negative, I wasn't paying close attention to that particular detail. But I will do so going forward though.


Where are you taking these measurements?

The measurements being referred to here are from the cases of the TO-3 outputs to ground. With the driver board AND all four outputs installed, there was 50-something VDC (polarity not noted) on the two innermost TO-3's and 0 VDC on the two outermost TO-3's. I realize that this is a non-standard place to take a voltage reading, but thinking that a subtle clue might perhaps be contained within that could provide some sort of insight into what might be happening on the driver board.


The driver board is always suspect when you have rail voltage and good output transistors. Fusible resistors and the VD1212 should be replaced regardless and you might get lucky but faults with them would kick it into protection. First step is to figure out why you have voltage at the speaker terminals with no outputs installed.

If the fusible resistors and/or the VD1212s are not causing these particular issues, meaning the near-rail voltage at speaker outputs even when the TO-3 outputs are removed, then yes, I will opt to leave the fusibles and the VD1212's in place for now. As much as I would enjoy bringing this beauty back to full health, I am not in a position to take on the 8080 as a restoration project at this time.

My plan is to pass this unit along to someone else who is able to give it all of the attention it deserves.

But before that, what I would like to do if possible, is just get her working. I would like to hear this receiver. And I would like to be able to go through and methodically assess functionality and determine what other issues may, or may not, exist.

What think I understand based on your last post, is that there could be (or are?) issues on 3 boards: protection board, power supply board, and the driver board...is this correct? Could it be that there is one fault on one of those boards, that could explain all of the observations I have reported? What about shorted driver transistors TR11 - TR14?



EDIT: @LBPete I have, for a second time, edited the test results reported in post #17. The original post was difficult to follow. It should be much more clear and concise now.
 
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You’re not going to get it working, if the wrong part is malfunctioning on the driver board.
Since you’re not in protection, even though you’re measuring considerable DC at the outputs, the protection circuit is not functioning correctly. Above a specific DC voltage, the protector will not go green.
Does the relay on the protector board make a click? Can you see it pull in, when you turn on the receiver?
 
The relay closes with the driver board installed; TO-3 outputs removed. I just verified that.

I would be reluctant to put the TO-3's back into the amp at this point, as I have tested them to be good. I would be afraid of doing harm to them.

But I am fairly certain that the relay was also closing with driver board installed AND TO-3 outputs installed. If the relay had not closed during this test, I don't think it would have been possible to have that near-rail DCV on the speaker outputs.

@bubhardy Please have another look at post #17 if you haven't already. I revised and clarified that post. It was a train wreck in its original version :confused:
 
I reread #17. Case number 2 is a problem. Case number 3 is normal, with the way the output transistors are connected.
I can’t recall if you’re using the service manual schematics, but with the way they’re broken up, it makes it hard to track stuff out. In the service manual, on page 10 of the pdf, section 4-2, there is a general drawing of how this is all connected. The only way you can see rail voltage at the speaker outputs, with the outputs pulled, is if your driver board output transistors are shorted. But that would probably blow a fuse. But your protector board has got an issue, too, because anything over +/-2.5VDC will cause the unit to be in protection, and you wouldn’t see any voltage at the speaker outputs. That’s the part that doesn’t make sense- you’re getting the green light from the protector, but you’ve got rail voltage at the speaker outputs.
If this was a cap coupled amp, this would be normal, with no load.
 
....... if you’re using the service manual schematics, but with the way they’re broken up, it makes it hard to track stuff out.....

The .pdf Service Manual from HifiEngine is indeed broken up in a way that makes it difficult to trace out board-to-board, or section-to-section.

I found a better laid-out .pdf Service Manual at elektrotanya
https://elektrotanya.com/sansui_9090_8080.pdf/download.html

In this SM the complete block diagrams for the tuner section and the audio section appear together, and intact, on just one page, page 6. And the schematic also is shown complete on page 13. These pages are much easier for me to navigate than those in the HifiEngine version.

Note that electrotanya.com site has at least two (possibly more) available covering the 8080 . The better one is named sansui_9090_8080, whereas the one named sansui_8080_9090 appears to be the same as the one at HifiEngine
 
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I reread #17. Case number 2 is a problem. Case number 3 is normal, with the way the output transistors are connected.
...

The voltage mentioned in the 3rd scenario in post #17 is 52.4 full volts, very near to rail voltage. It is not mV.
 
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The voltage mentioned in the 3rd scenario in post #17 is 52.4 full volts, very near to rail voltage. It is not mV.
Right. The collectors of the upper pairs of output transistors connect directly to “+B”, which is the positive power supply rail. So the cases of those two transistors would measure at rail voltage to ground.
 
This is spiraling out of control. The schematics in the 9090/8080 service manuals are the worst in the Sansui line. I've been screwing around for some time trying to trace the circuit between the driver board and the output transistors and have given up. They don't show the actual connections, you have to jump through multiple individual schematics and match pin numbers to the master diagram. Then the Fk'en numbers don't match or don't appear on all the diagrams involved. The output coils don't appear in any of the diagrams. They are just not shown.

So, lets take a different approach and establish a new baseline. Put everything back together, all the boards, all the outputs, anything you have removed, install it. If you don't have a dim bulb tester, make one and use it. Don't power it up again until you have the DBT.

Then, what does the protection light do? Red, Green, Blink, no Blink.
Next what is the voltage across the speaker terminals?

- Pete
 
Right. The collectors of the upper pairs of output transistors connect directly to “+B”, which is the positive power supply rail. So the cases of those two transistors would measure at rail voltage to ground.

OK that's good to know. Thank you.
 
....
So, lets take a different approach and establish a new baseline. Put everything back together, all the boards, all the outputs, anything you have removed, install it. If you don't have a dim bulb tester, make one and use it. Don't power it up again until you have the DBT.

Then, what does the protection light do? Red, Green, Blink, no Blink.
Next what is the voltage across the speaker terminals?.....

Will do.

For the 8080 what wattage bulb would you suggest in the DBT?

It may be a few days before I can do the tests and report back as I have a crazy busy week ahead.
.
 
When you get it back together, tip it on it's side with the transformer at the bottom. Then you can take off the bottom cover. There is a blue and a gray wire that comes off the bottom of the power supply board. They go to the protection board. Measure the DC voltage between each of those wires and chassis ground. That will give us a base line.

- Pete
 
This is spiraling out of control. The schematics in the 9090/8080 service manuals are the worst in the Sansui line. I've been screwing around for some time trying to trace the circuit between the driver board and the output transistors and have given up. They don't show the actual connections, you have to jump through multiple individual schematics and match pin numbers to the master diagram. Then the Fk'en numbers don't match or don't appear on all the diagrams involved. The output coils don't appear in any of the diagrams. They are just not shown.

That's not an isolated case. It is difficult enough to acquire good documentation for 40-50 year old equipment. The challenge is even greater when good documentation never existed, even when the units were being manufactured.
 
Mini-update:

While I have not yet cleared work space needed to do the testing discussed above, I have taken some readings of the fusible resistors on the removable F-2436-1 driver board. Readings done in circuit, just to get a rough idea of what is going on, and found 5 of 12 fusible resistors reading open, and one 150R fusible reading above 1000R.

So, as this board is easy access and definitely has issues, I intend to do as suggested earlier by @w1jim, replacing the fusibles and testing transistors, and will also replace electrolytic caps and VD1212s. At this point in time I do not intend to do the SSI-0004E mods though.

And this leads to a question for @LBPete ...

Based what is known (or assumed) presently, (1) that the driver board has issues that cause DC voltage to be seen at the speaker outputs, and (2) that the protection board should be, but is not, putting the amp into protection mode because of the DC voltage at the speaker outputs......would it be better to do the previously discussed testing with the driver board in its presently flawed condition?

Or put another way, if all existing issues on the driver board are resolved, and this results in correcting the DC voltage issues...would this make it more difficult to determine whether there is an issue on the protection board? Because with a healthy driver board there would be no fault to be sensed and corrected, protection board would have no reason to respond, and it would not be as easy to know how the protection board reacts to faults. :dunno:
 
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Because with a healthy driver board there would be no fault to be sensed and corrected, protection board would have no reason to respond, and it would not be as easy to know how the protection board reacts to faults. :dunno:
If you want to test the protection board reacts to DC offset simply adjust the DC offset to put over 0.5V on the output of one channel and see what happens, obviously the relay should open, and the protection light should turn red. I would only recommend doing this with an otherwise healthy driver board.
 
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