Schiit Magni vs Vali vs other options?

[RunOutGroove]

I haven't really been a "headphone guy" but I recently acquired a pair of Sennheiser HD600 phones and in order to be sure that I'm really getting the most out of these things, I feel like I might need a headphone amp. I don't really have a lot of money to throw at this thing so I'm looking at budget type solutions. It seems that the most inexpensive one that comes recommended is the Schiit Magni, which I see on Ebay, though the prices for it are high compared to the brand new price (it's for the "3" model, not sure what that actually designates though?). For a bit more and at a far better price considering what they sell for brand new is the tube amp model, the Vali. I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on these two models and if I'm likely to get a really obvious improvement in sound quality with the slightly more expensive (but better valued) tube model..?

Also, in case it's important, I'll be plugging this into a Maratnz 2270 receiver.

I'll consider any other options that folks might recommend as I'm not tied to the Schiit brand (I've only heard some good things about this stuff).

 

[cratz2]

So, overall they are very similar. The Vali is going to be very slightly warmer so perhaps with your 600s - which are considered to be fairly neutral would be a better match than the Magni. The difference is going to be small enough that if you compared them on different days, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. The Vali is a bit less powerful than the Magni though either will adequately power your 600s. If you end up buying something a bit more difficult to drive in the future, the Magni may be the better choice.

Tube amps will almost always introduce more distortion and noise. Usually it's not an offensive type of distortion but in terms of measurement, the Magni will likely measure better.

Having said that, part of fun of tube amps is 'tube rolling' or trying different tubes. Often times, there are bigger difference between different tubes than the solid state equivalent and the tube amp with a very neutral tube installed.

And of course, tubes don't last forever. That probably shouldn't stop someone from buying an amp with a single tube in it. And tubes create quite a bit of heat.

I think either amp will serve you very well.

 

[RunOutGroove]

So, overall they are very similar. The Vali is going to be very slightly warmer so perhaps with your 600s - which are considered to be fairly neutral would be a better match than the Magni. The difference is going to be small enough that if you compared them on different days, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. The Vali is a bit less powerful than the Magni though either will adequately power your 600s. If you end up buying something a bit more difficult to drive in the future, the Magni may be the better choice.

Tube amps will almost always introduce more distortion and noise. Usually it's not an offensive type of distortion but in terms of measurement, the Magni will likely measure better.

Having said that, part of fun of tube amps is 'tube rolling' or trying different tubes. Often times, there are bigger difference between different tubes than the solid state equivalent and the tube amp with a very neutral tube installed.

And of course, tubes don't last forever. That probably shouldn't stop someone from buying an amp with a single tube in it. And tubes create quite a bit of heat.

I think either amp will serve you very well.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge/opinion here... I went ahead and bid on and won one of those Vali amps (the original one, not that #2 version - an "open box" as the ad claims). I figured that the price that I paid was about what I was seeing the cheaper Magni amps go for used and I was curious about the stuff that I was hearing about that amp sounding so much more spacious (but a bit less accurate). I've never owned anything with a tube, but I figure that this one's got just one, that those tubes are supposed to be cheap, that I probably won't be using it enough to have it wear out very quickly and I like the idea of being able to swap tubes for different sounds. The one thing that I already don't like about the thing is that the tube makes the profile quite a bit taller. Knowing that I had to change around my rack setup, which was kind of a pain and now puts my turntable at barely eye level (not ideal).

Anyway, I'm always looking for a slice of audio nirvana, probably because I'm a bit jaded with my music collection (despite the fact that I've been buying a lot of new (used) music lately) and I crave anything that might allow me to hear stuff with new ears...

 

[cratz2]

I haven't done a lot of tube swapping in audio equipment. I just have two tube/hybrid headphone amps.

I will say that, as a guitarist, it's pretty amazing the differences tubes can make in the first one or two spots of a guitar amp.

Do a little reading on various tubes, don't spend too much on one and have fun.

 

[hornbostel]

The Magni is a great little amp. I have a Magni in my work office setup and use it in two different ways. 1) as a pre-amp via RCA input from a Schiit Modi DAC (input via USB from PC) with RCA output to the amp portion of a Proton D940 receiver driving a pair of Smaller Advents. When going from RCA in to RCA out, the Magni is just a plain simple and great pre-amp. 2) I can plug in my Sennheiser HD265s (closed back, so a bit different than the OPs more modern 600s) which then bypasses the pre-amp RCA output of the Magni to the Proton. The 265s sound great driven by the Magni.

I also have Magni's bigger brother, the Magnius, which can drive more difficult headphone loads. I can't hear much difference. I actually use the Magnius again as a pre-amp with input from a Modius DAC. The Modius is a bit better DAC than the Modi but more importantly for me has balanced XLR outputs which provide input the Magnius' balanced XLR inputs. Moreover, Magnius has true balanced XLR outputs which then go to a pair of Schiit Aegir monoblocks driving either a pair of ADS L1230's or JBL L100ts. The Magnius also has a separate RCA input where my turntable amp provides input, so the Magnius has all my listening bases covered. Schiit makes some solid sounding and super affordable Schiit.

Let us know how the Vali works out for you. I have yet to explore any of the Schiit tube gear.

 

[RunOutGroove]

The Magni is a great little amp. I have a Magni in my work office setup and use it in two different ways. 1) as a pre-amp via RCA input from a Schiit Modi DAC (input via USB from PC) with RCA output to the amp portion of a Proton D940 receiver driving a pair of Smaller Advents. When going from RCA in to RCA out, the Magni is just a plain simple and great pre-amp. 2) I can plug in my Sennheiser HD265s (closed back, so a bit different than the OPs more modern 600s) which then bypasses the pre-amp RCA output of the Magni to the Proton. The 265s sound great driven by the Magni.

I also have Magni's bigger brother, the Magnius, which can drive more difficult headphone loads. I can't hear much difference. I actually use the Magnius again as a pre-amp with input from a Modius DAC. The Modius is a bit better DAC than the Modi but more importantly for me has balanced XLR outputs which provide input the Magnius' balanced XLR inputs. Moreover, Magnius has true balanced XLR outputs which then go to a pair of Schiit Aegir monoblocks driving either a pair of ADS L1230's or JBL L100ts. The Magnius also has a separate RCA input where my turntable amp provides input, so the Magnius has all my listening bases covered. Schiit makes some solid sounding and super affordable Schiit.

Let us know how the Vali works out for you. I have yet to explore any of the Schiit tube gear.

Cool... I haven't yet owned any of the Schiit stuff, but they seem like a nice low cost/high value option and made in the USA, which is nice. I'm interested in that Modius DAC as the Topping D50s, I have is OK and definitely an improvement over the built in DAC of my Onkyo DVD player and the cheap in-line DAC that I was using for my TV (I love the idea of a 2 in 1 type box!), but now that I've had that thing for a while, I'm wondering if something like the Modius, which isn't too much money might be even better. I've been looking ofr a used one and I figure that if I can find one and get it for a reasonable deal, then for waht I can sell the Topping for I will have spent very, very little... which is how I like to do it with audio gear. The Topping has been a good lesson in how a DAC really can contribute to the sound (I hear a fair bit more depth than without it).

 

[heyraz]

I have Sennheiser 518's and 650's.

I was using my son's Valhalla 2 and tried many different tubes. Eventually decided Bugle Boys 6dj8's were my favorites.

My son got his own place and took the Valhalla 2 with him. I wanted to try something different so I ordered a Darkvoice 336SE from Amazon (because I love their return policy). It was a little over $200.

My immediate impression: the Darkvoice 336SE is a lot more fun to listen to. I prefer it to the Valhalla 2, which I think is "dry" by comparison. Somewhat like the "Solid State vs Tubes" debate, I think the Darkvoice sounds more like a tube amp.
They're both good amps, I just think the Darkvoice has more slam and depth. I'm not certain, but I think the Darkvoice's circuit is similar to the Bottlehead Crack.

I thought the Darkvoice's stock tubes were terrible (the set mine came with rattled) so I swapped in a NOS Tung Sol JAN CTL-6SN7 WGTA and a NOS RCA JAN CRC-6AS7G. The tubes were not that expensive, maybe $30 each.
I really like this amp with my 650's.

The only inherent problem with the Darkvoice 336SE is that it can hum if the 6SN7 tube is leaky between its filament and cathode. I have a pretty decent stash of 6SN7's and tried many. Some hummed, most did not. If it hums, it's not the amp's fault, it's the tube. There are Darkvoice Mods on the web that are supposed to mitigate the hum (Fitz Mod) but I didn't like the way it sounded after the Fitz Mod. The Fitz mod also didn't eliminate the hum, it just reduced it while "killing" the sound. The amp just didn't sound that good after the Fitz Mod. Easy to reverse the Fitz Mod, easier to try a different 6SN7. With the Tung Sol, my amp does not hum at all and it "sings" pretty good.

Later on, my son (who has the same cans) picked up a Darkvoice and said the stock tubes were fine, no hum. We both use the same cans and amps, his Valhalla 2 sits in a box.

Hope this helps.

 

[RunOutGroove]

I have Sennheiser 518's and 650's.

I was using my son's Valhalla 2 and tried many different tubes. Eventually decided Bugle Boys 6dj8's were my favorites.

My son got his own place and took the Valhalla 2 with him. I wanted to try something different so I ordered a Darkvoice 336SE from Amazon (because I love their return policy). It was a little over $200.

My immediate impression: the Darkvoice 336SE is a lot more fun to listen to. I prefer it to the Valhalla 2, which I think is "dry" by comparison. Somewhat like the "Solid State vs Tubes" debate, I think the Darkvoice sounds more like a tube amp.
They're both good amps, I just think the Darkvoice has more slam and depth. I'm not certain, but I think the Darkvoice's circuit is similar to the Bottlehead Crack.

I thought the Darkvoice's stock tubes were terrible (the set mine came with rattled) so I swapped in a NOS Tung Sol JAN CTL-6SN7 WGTA and a NOS RCA JAN CRC-6AS7G. The tubes were not that expensive, maybe $30 each.
I really like this amp with my 650's.

The only inherent problem with the Darkvoice 336SE is that it can hum if the 6SN7 tube is leaky between its filament and cathode. I have a pretty decent stash of 6SN7's and tried many. Some hummed, most did not. If it hums, it's not the amp's fault, it's the tube. There are Darkvoice Mods on the web that are supposed to mitigate the hum (Fitz Mod) but I didn't like the way it sounded after the Fitz Mod. The Fitz mod also didn't eliminate the hum, it just reduced it while "killing" the sound. The amp just didn't sound that good after the Fitz Mod. Easy to reverse the Fitz Mod, easier to try a different 6SN7. With the Tung Sol, my amp does not hum at all and it "sings" pretty good.

Later on, my son (who has the same cans) picked up a Darkvoice and said the stock tubes were fine, no hum. We both use the same cans and amps, his Valhalla 2 sits in a box.

Hope this helps.

View attachment 2332168

That looks like a very cool amp and actually for just $200 brand new, very reasonable. I just spend $90 on a used Schiit Vali that I won on Ebay. I'm sure it'll be fine for my purposes. I think though that one is different than and therefore different sounding than the one that you're talking about. The Vali uses a tube for just one stage of the amp and is considered to by hybrid amp, where this one that you have is pure tube type circuit, I bet. I'm just curious to hear just how much better this one that I ordered sounds than the headphone output of my amp... and if I notice any of this "tube character" that it's supped to have.

 

[heyraz]

I didn't fully pay attention to the schiit model you bought.
It uses the 6088 tube, right? If so, that's a subminiature tube that's soldered to its board.

I have a friend who uses a similar amp with Grado's. He likes it a lot so I think you'll enjoy yours.

Good luck and let us know your impressions.

 

[RunOutGroove]

I didn't fully pay attention to the schiit model you bought.
It uses the 6088 tube, right? If so, that's a subminiature tube that's soldered to its board.

I have a friend who uses a similar amp with Grado's. He likes it a lot so I think you'll enjoy yours.

Good luck and let us know your impressions.

yeah, I have a pair of Grados too, the SR60 model, which is the cheapest of the line I think, but they always sounded pretty good to me. They were the only phones (other than some that I use for music rehearsal, which aren't anything like hi-fi) that I had for years, up until recently when I hot the Sennheisers. It'll be interesting to see what this amp does to both of these phones...

 

[ng0k]

I have a Magni 2. Paired with my Grado SR60 and SR125s it's too much power plus too forward of neutral for my ears. If those HD600s are warm and higher impedance then it could be a good match. Also the Loki param EQ would be a good addition!

 

[red 111]

I have the VALI …Loki…Modi…Schiit Stack & also have the Magnius & Modius balanced stack…both systems are very enjoyable…

 

[RunOutGroove]

OK... I bought the Vali 1, which finally showed up and upon unboxing I was a bit disappointed with the thing. I stupidly thought that it was more similar to the ones that I saw photos of, the Vali 2, with the replaceable tube on top. I didn't have a great photo as the image that the Ebay seller provided showed the thing halfway shoved into the box (I ought to be smart and ask for better pictures, I know!). This one has two tubes, but soldered in (I popped the top to see). I don't know if I like the idea of the whole soldered in tubes thing, but the important thing is the sound, right? Well... I just hooked the thing up (using the tape outputs of my old Marantz 2270 amp), fired it up and tested it against the headphone out on the Marantz...and... I do like the sound of the Schiit better! Not a night and day difference, but the Schiit amp seemed to have nicer overtones where the cymbals had more life, the upright bass had more "wood," etc. There also seemed to be more separation between the instruments with the Schiit. The two things that I listened to, if anyone is even hip to this stuff or cares, was the debut, self titled CD by Sam Prekop (of Sea and Cake) and one by drummer/percussionist Leon Parker. Both of those recordings are really well recorded with lots of textures and lots of space between the instruments. Great music, in my book, but particularly good for hearing just how good (or bad) your system is..

I feel like I did alright for my $90 investment on this thing (including shipping).

 

[cratz2]

Glad you're enjoying it so far. I'm not much of a tube guy so I didn't pay much attention to the Vali. I didn't realize until this thread that version 1 had the tube soldered in place.

I have two entry-ish level headphone amps. One came with upgraded tubes and the other, I swapped tubes around. I must say there can be a considerable difference in how different tubes sound, as I mentioned a couple posts back, as a guitarist, I've extensively swapped tubes around in guitar amps so it comes as no surprise but man... can be a tremendous difference.

 

[heyraz]

You didn't do bad for $90.

The big complaint I read about soldered in tubes is that they can become "microphonic", tap the chassis and the tube(s) pick up vibrations like a microphone. Tubes also have a finite life, meaning it's not a question of "if", it's a question of "when" they'll get tired and need to be replaced. They're easier to replace when they're in sockets.

On my son's Valhalla 2 one of the tubes was extremely microphonic and actually "whistled"... you could hear a high pitch tone externally. It might have created a feedback that was audible through my cans, I don't recall. I eliminated the whistle and "tonally voiced" the amp by rolling different tubes.

"The Forest for The Trees":
You described individual instruments and the space between. "The Trees" for my analogy.
How do you like "The Overall Presentation"? Does the amp set up an "image"? What I call "The Forest". Would you describe it as tonally correct, accurate and realistic? Can you place instruments on the soundstage?

I used to focus on the details rather than the overall presentation. I hadn't yet learned how to see the forest for the trees.

Let us know what you think after you become acclimated.

 

[RunOutGroove]

You didn't do bad for $90.

The big complaint I read about soldered in tubes is that they can become "microphonic", tap the chassis and the tube(s) pick up vibrations like a microphone. Tubes also have a finite life, meaning it's not a question of "if", it's a question of "when" they'll get tired and need to be replaced. They're easier to replace when they're in sockets.

On my son's Valhalla 2 one of the tubes was extremely microphonic and actually "whistled"... you could hear a high pitch tone externally. It might have created a feedback that was audible through my cans, I don't recall. I eliminated the whistle and "tonally voiced" the amp by rolling different tubes.

"The Forest for The Trees":
You described individual instruments and the space between. "The Trees" for my analogy.
How do you like "The Overall Presentation"? Does the amp set up an "image"? What I call "The Forest". Would you describe it as tonally correct, accurate and realistic? Can you place instruments on the soundstage?

I used to focus on the details rather than the overall presentation. I hadn't yet learned how to see the forest for the trees.

Let us know what you think after you become acclimated.

No, I totally get that... If I had realized that this thing had the soldered in tubes, I surely wouldn't have bid on the thing. I get that the tubes are replaceable, but only with some trouble. I suppose that I would attempt that rather than chucking the thing, but I'm no electronics guru and I certainly don't love the idea of doing so. Fortunately the thing sounds good right now and I'm not sure how much headphone listening that I'm going to be doing, so that I may be putting few enough hours on those tubes that they last a very long time.

As for the overall sound, I really need to do more listening to really make up my mind, but so far things sound really good. My issue with these kinds of "listening impressions" type of things is that I can always imagine better, but I haven't heard enough to have a real basis for comparison. I will say though that as good as things sound and as much as I'm digging the greater separation and greater feeling of depth that this little amp has over the one built into my old receiver, I kind of expected more in the way of imaging. The sound I'm getting isn't exactly the kind of thing where I'm hearing the instruments placed far back in space. Then again, this likely has much more to do with the headphones as the reviews I've read of the Sennheiser HD600 that I have say that they have really nice tonality, with especially smooth midrange, but don't really excel in imaging. I ought to compare these other much cheaper headphones that i have, some Grado SR60 ones and note the differences...

I think though really at some point, I'll be listening to something that works particularly well with those phones, getting lost in it and then I won't really be thinking so about the strengths and weakness of the gear... which is how it should be. I figure that if I've gotten to a place with my system where I can get lost enough in the music that at least nothing is actively bothering me about the quality of the sound, then I just might be onto something!

 

[heyraz]

As I noted...$90 ain't bad.

I've had a few different headphone amps, it's a process. My first was the Grado battery powered unit. I was blown away when I heard it and paid $500. So quiet, revealing and open sounding. I remember hearing flutes that I never heard before. They were so airy.

After reading the Grado amp was a simple CMOY circuit based on a 55 cent chip I became less enamored. Now hobbyists build that amp in Altoids boxes.

I loved the Valhalla 2 while I had it. When my son took it with him I almost bought another. Schiit makes a good product.

Headphone enthusiasts really like the Bottlehead Crack. The Darkvoice seemed similar albeit not as sophisticated so I thought I'd try it. Amazon has become my "Demo Room" because of their liberal return policy. I liked the way my 650's sounded with the Darkvoice and decided to keep it. The price was right too, around $200. I think it's a good value.