Seriously?

D

Dire McCain

Well-Known Member
It's been a while since I turned my attention back to vinyl and turntables and such. Had a JVC QL y66f 10 years ago that failed to impress me a lot. Working now with a san 9090, an oink M504 and a complement of other vintage equipment, as well as the up to date HD audio stuff. Had a couple of Pioneers, 530, 570, 518, 115d...but that's just for context to say I appreciate good audio and have had experience with turntables.

Here's my question. Are people really shelling out $500 and more for carts?

I amazed how carts and styli have skyrocket in price since 2010. Personally, I doubt that anyone over 14 with older ears can really hear the performance they are (or might be) paying for...

Just a question...what's happening?
 
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Dire McCain said:
Are people really shelling out $500 and more for carts?
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I mean...most entry-level moving coil carts start at around $500.

So yeah. Of course people are. Do I think $10,000 cartridges are a bit nuts? Sure. But there's definitely a huge difference moving from a cheap $50 cart to something in the $500-$1000 range.

Sibilance? Gone.

Inner groove distortion? Gone.

Clarity? Next-level, especially with more advanced stylus shapes.

Once you move beyond affordable conical and elliptical carts, things just open up so much. It truly is worth it (well, up until a point, that is....)
 
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Over the last few years I've jumped from entry level carts like Grado Black and Music Hall Tracker (both about $100 and actually sound pretty darn good) to higher end MM and MC carts. When you move to $500-$700 range there is absolutely no comparison. Is it expensive? Unfortunately, yes. Do I have a choice if I want a better musical experience? No.
 
I went from an AT440mlb to a ATOC9ml/II which the 440 runs about $300 and the OC9 about $450. The 440 is a mm and the OC9 a mc. Both Micro-Line. I find the OC9 has more fine detail than the 440mlb. But the OC9 has more "white noise" when the TT is idle. Drop the needle on the record and its quiet. And granted the white noise is at extreme volume too. I like it loud !!! The "white noise or low hiss" is probably due to the lower voltage. But the mm 440mlb is dead quiet at idle at high volume. Is the sound difference between the two worth the added $150. I say yes. Now will a $10,000 cartridge make me say "Holy ****" in comparison on my TT. I highly doubt it. But I also know I will never go back to anything less than what I have now. Plus Audio Technics has a hell of a trade in policy, so if your looking, stick with AT. I can upgrade my OC9ml/II to a OC9-XML for $282. Thats a $549 cartridge. So they are giving me $257 for my old OC9. Not bad.
 
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Blewpernt said:
The very best deal is still the very-popular-for-a-reason Denon DL-110. Excellent generator, and nude elliptical diamond. Street price is still only about $250 last time I checked
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These haven't retailed for $250 in years. More like $400 now. It also has an elliptical diamond which I find doesn't trace the inner grooves properly.

In my opinion, the Audio-Technica VM540ML sounds better at just $249. And yes, it has a nude diamond too (microline shape, much better than the Denon's elliptical).

I think this is the cartridge to beat under $500 right now.
 
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BushmasterM4 said:
The AT540ml at $249 is a steal. Same specs as the higher 740ml. The 740 has an aluminum body and the 540 plastic. Wonder if thats the only difference ?
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If you look at the specs on the AT website, the body is the only difference. I now run the 540ML on my GR although the improvement from the 95ML I'd run for a couple of years is minor (but noticeable - slightly better output and separation). The VM95ML is the cart right now at it's price point at $170 IMO.
 
Blewpernt said:
Not when you consider the diamond. Most in that range have a bonded elliptical, just like the $50 cartridge. The Hana, Sumiko Blue Point Special EVO III and the Benz Micro Silver and Gold all are basically the same cartridge with different window dressing. They all have the very same cantilever and diamond, magnet and internal structure because they are all made by Excel.

Dynavector 10X5 used to be in the same price range. At least you got a nude elliptical diamond. Now the 10X5 price has been bumped up with the inclusions of a nude Namiki Shibata III. But the difference in diamond price between the nude elliptical and nude Shibata is really next to nothing for a volume buyer like Dynavector, which tells you that it’s all about marketing towards taking advantage of customers’ lack of knowledge.

The very best deal is still the very-popular-for-a-reason Denon DL-110. Excellent generator, and nude elliptical diamond. Street price is still only about $250 last time I checked, and followed closely by the Denon DL-301MKII which presents an enormous leap for the small difference in price. My personal opinion is that these two just about crush anything priced double and even triple.

Audio-Technica also make a nice range of rather humbly spec’d but great sounding cartridges like the AT-F3 III and similar models.

Ortofon Quintet series to me is a bit overpriced for what you get. But I have never heard the entry-level Quintet Red. But given that the Hana, Sumiko and Benz give you the $15 stylus bonded elliptical, at least the Quintet Blue also gives you a nice nude elliptical—likely the same one that appears on the DENON DL-110.

Im not sure why MC cartridges are so expensive, actually. From a building and design perspective, they are less tricky to get right. They use more magnet and less wire than moving magnet cartridges and could be produced cheaply enough to be truly disposeable. But there is no separate stylus to design and produce to tolerance in quantity and then package and ship.

So why so expensive? Not sure, really, except that the level of competitive demand is high enough for MC cartridges that high prices are supported.
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The DL-110 is now more expensive than ever, and AT-F series cartridges are discontinued. The best budget LOMC at the moment is AT-OC9XEN (nude elliptical). If you want a nude microline stylus, AT-OC9XML might be the best value in MC period.
 
There were over 1k carts in the 70’s , maybe your surprised at the prices because you’re just now looking into carts prices?. of course with inflation prices have risen , but there has always been pricey carts if you know where to look. With that said , is there a difference between a $500,$1000,.$4000 carts? Absolutely yes as I have owned and own them and there is a difference. The difference between my $500 cart and $4000 cart is night and day difference for the better imo.

Imo my MC carts offer much more detail and separation depth and width compared to the MM carts I’ve owned . All the MM carts I’ve owned were very good carts and could be used for just about any genre. Take my MC carts and amplify that by 100 as they are more engaging with bringing you into the music. It’s not simple and understood by many until they actually experience it but there are so many different types of carts that there is something for everyone in all price points.


Audiofreak71
 
Blewpernt said:
Discontinued, but still very available, but perhaps better to put any MC money towards the AT-OC9XML. I have an OCML/II that keeps me quite happy. It was also a steal for a while when they suddenly were available for a very brief moment in time for about $250.
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A conversation I had with AT suggests the OC9XML fitted to stock headshell of my Technics SL-1210GR is not the best, producing a resonance peak at about 6 Hz, as I recall. I’m still going to buy it and fit it to an AT LH11H headshell which will realize the Technics tracking error scheme in short order.
 
SterlingOne said:
A conversation I had with AT suggests the OC9XML fitted to stock headshell of my Technics SL-1210GR is not the best, producing a resonance peak at about 6 Hz, as I recall. I’m still going to buy it and fit it to an AT LH11H headshell which will realize the Technics tracking error scheme in short order.
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If the resonance peak is at 6 Hz, this indicates that the tonearm is too heavy for the cartridge in question. In that case, replacing the stock headshell (~9g) with an 11g headshell would shift the resonance peak even lower.
 
stratokaster said:
If the resonance peak is at 6 Hz, this indicates that the tonearm is too heavy for the cartridge in question. In that case, replacing the stock headshell (~9g) with an 11g headshell would shift the resonance peak even lower.
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Yes I know but I have a few carts in the 5 to 6 Hz arena and they sound great so it appears to not be a big deal.
 
I own the same JVC and really I find it strange you failed to be impressed. What tables did you own that out performed it, as it certainly wasn't the Pioneers you posted, as I have owned and own some of them as well, and the JVC is a much better table then the Pioneers that you posted.
 
Audiofreak71 said:
There were over 1k carts in the 70’s , maybe your surprised at the prices because you’re just now looking into carts prices?. of course with inflation prices have risen , but there has always been pricey carts if you know where to look. With that said , is there a difference between a $500,$1000,.$4000 carts? Absolutely yes as I have owned and own them and there is a difference. The difference between my $500 cart and $4000 cart is night and day difference for the better imo.

Imo my MC carts offer much more detail and separation depth and width compared to the MM carts I’ve owned . All the MM carts I’ve owned were very good carts and could be used for just about any genre. Take my MC carts and amplify that by 100 as they are more engaging with bringing you into the music. It’s not simple and understood by many until they actually experience it but there are so many different types of carts that there is something for everyone in all price points.


Audiofreak71
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You need a very high quality phono preamp to go along with those super expensive cartridges. Phono preamp & cartridge go hand in hand.
 
Audiofreak71 said:
That is true , it’s all part of the game , but I got that covered also :thumbsup:


Audiofreak71
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With MC cartridges it's all about getting the loading (ohms) correct. Phono preamp with adjustable loading is a must for MC cartridges, imo. When I was using my Denon DL-301 MKII, plugged into a Cambridge 640P phono preamp that doesn't have adjustable loading, fixed at 100 Ohm. That cartridge sounds best at 300-400 ohm. Highs were a bit rolled off. Luckily was using an EQ. Comes in handy when you need that extra oomph. ;)
 
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