Shure V15 Type IV cartridge health

KentTeffeteller said:
. . . Ed Saunders no longer runs the company who bears his name, and the current offerings in styli from them are standard generics.
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I had read about the trials and tribulations of Ed Saunders on threads that were 5-6 years old. Since the TNT Audio review was from 2014, I figured they were back on course with quality products; perhaps that's not the case.
 
Since the M97xE has been dragged into this thread, I'll weigh in here. I own two M97xE's, I bought the second one because the first just sounded dull. The second one was not any better, so they mostly sit on the shelf.

This morning I was listening to Beethoven's 9th (London ffrr) on my Thorens TD 160 with a Shure V15 type lV and JICO VN45HE. This was the first time I listened to this record and was blown away by the quality of the recording. So I wanted to see if the M97xE could provide the same level of enjoyment in the same system and same recording.

No way. Every aspect of the performance, from percussion to strings, woodwinds, brass, etc. sounded as though the orchestra hadn't had their morning latte's.

I really want to like the M97xE. The price is right, it looks cool and it has the awesome stabilizing brush, but it just doesn't cut it for me. The next time I order from JICO, I'm going to give their N97xE stylus a try, hopefully it will inject some life into it.
 
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malden said:
Since the M97xE has been dragged into this thread, I'll weigh in here. I own two M97xE's, I bought the second one because the first just sounded dull. The second one was not any better, so they mostly sit on the shelf.

This morning I was listening to Beethoven's 9th (London ffrr) on my Thorens TD 160 with a Shure V15 type lV and JICO VN45HE. This was the first time I listened to this record and was blown away by the quality of the recording. So I wanted to see if the M97xE could provide the same level of enjoyment in the same system and same recording.

No way. Every aspect of the performance, from percussion to strings, woodwinds, brass, etc. sounded as though the orchestra hadn't had their morning latte's.

I really want to like the M97xE. The price is right, it looks cool and it has the awesome stabilizing brush, but it just doesn't cut it for me. The next time I order from JICO, I'm going to give their N97xE stylus a try, hopefully it will inject some life into it.
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Malden, you can also fit one of your N35X or 35C,or N44GX and others like those onto the body of the M97x. I've done that and been pleased with it, more pleased than with the N97xE stylus on it.
 
tubewade said:
Malden, you can also fit one of your N35X or 35C,or N44GX and others like those onto the body of the M97x. I've done that and been pleased with it, more pleased than with the N97xE stylus on it.
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I haven't tried those yet. I did try a N104E a while ago and it did seem to sound livelier that the stock stylus.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
The material Shure could not get, was the beryillium for the cantilevers. Which forced the discontinuation of the V 15 series. And also, the nude HE and MicroRidge tips sourced from Namiki in Japan are about non existent today. The M97xE is what you can get today from Shure. And also bear in mind that the M97xE is very load sensitive to get it to sound right. Ed Saunders no longer runs the company who bears his name, and the current offerings in styli from them are standard generics.
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So the V15 vanished into the depths of history and nostalgia because of a material shortage ... yet this was Shure's greatest cartridge? How do Jico and the likes get around this? It seems there's a healthy market for replacement styli considering how much is being charged for them. I would think Shure would still want to stay in the market unless this replacement stylus is peanuts compared to the margin they are raking in with the M97x.
 
malden said:
Since the M97xE has been dragged into this thread, I'll weigh in here.
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Not exactly dragged in; after all, the OP asked if his money might not be better spent on "a new, modern cartridge with a stylus," and who better to go to for information than Shure themselves?

I own two M97xE's, I bought the second one because the first just sounded dull. The second one was not any better, so they mostly sit on the shelf.

This morning I was listening to Beethoven's 9th (London ffrr) on my Thorens TD 160 with a Shure V15 type lV and JICO VN45HE. This was the first time I listened to this record and was blown away by the quality of the recording. So I wanted to see if the M97xE could provide the same level of enjoyment in the same system and same recording.

No way. Every aspect of the performance, from percussion to strings, woodwinds, brass, etc. sounded as though the orchestra hadn't had their morning latte's.
Click to expand...
Great description!

I really want to like the M97xE. The price is right, it looks cool and it has the awesome stabilizing brush, but it just doesn't cut it for me. The next time I order from JICO, I'm going to give their N97xE stylus a try, hopefully it will inject some life into it.
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Nice post. This is the kind of feedback that helps people make choices. I'm sure you will report back if you try a new stylus on your M97xE, and it sounds like the OP is leaning toward trying a stylus or two for his V15 IV. Nobody has chimed in yet with PS-T2 experience, so whatever 6BQ5 discovers might help someone else with the same model.

There was a short thread a few months ago in which someone asked if the particular turntable to be used made much difference in cartridge selection, and I think most agree that it does. The M97xE, to my ears, has been a completely satisfying cartridge in both an LP12/Ittok setup as well as my current Rega RP3. As previously noted, it was not my favorite in either a Denon or a Well Tempered model. Much of the positive comment on it I've seen in this forum has come from Rega owners, and the reasonably positive review in TNT Audio used a Rega RB300 arm in a Michell GyroDec, where, unlike your experience in the TD 160, they noted, "The midrange and treble areas lack some air and definition, but the '97 somehow avoids sounding dull and boring. If anything, the music bursts forth with quite some enthusiasm." In my setup (RP3 with Audio by Van Alstine preamp), the M97xE gives me all I could hope for in terms of pace, rhythmic expression, and dynamics, along with a completely natural-sounding tonal balance that never calls attention to itself. I never even think about recording quality--I'm just swept away by the musical performance itself--but I know not everyone has this same experience with the M97xE.
 
6BQ5 said:
So the modern day Shure M97x is a step backward in all aspects except for its availability. But, if Shure could only make one cartridge then why make the M97x instead of something like a V15? Did Shure think that most people simply wouldnt notice the difference? Or would a V15 be too expensive and upscale in what may already be a crowded market space?

I'm impressed that there are so many styli available for the V15. That has to say something about the cartridge. If it was a poorly designed cartridge then I think the market would have left it behind. So how does one choose one of these styli? I was there was some sort of flowchart. If you play X kind of music the get styli A. If your records are all beat to hell then get styli B. If you like bright lively sound then get styli C. I doubt that many of us have a budget that allows us to buy one of each and to see how each performs.

-=- Boris
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In MM cartridge stylus assembly is responsible for 60-80% of sound qualities. Thus you should not be very excited about multiple versions available from multitudes of makers. It is very possible that none can compete with the original.

As to why Shure didn't continue making V15 line - they simply could not. When vinyl wend out of favor in 1990s, they likely abandoned tooling and technologies used to make V15-V. It was too expensive to keep with low production numbers. And on the price they would have to compete with MC cartridges, which people believe (rightly or wrongly) are better.
 
6BQ5 said:
So the V15 vanished into the depths of history and nostalgia because of a material shortage ... yet this was Shure's greatest cartridge? How do Jico and the likes get around this? It seems there's a healthy market for replacement styli considering how much is being charged for them. I would think Shure would still want to stay in the market unless this replacement stylus is peanuts compared to the margin they are raking in with the M97x.
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Shure got out of the V 15 just before the vinyl revival took hold. And they likely at that juncture didn't want to redesign it for a different cantilever. Jico gets around the material issue by using a different alternative for the cantilever, they first used Boron on the SAS, and then switched to something else when it got scarce.
 
The JICO also isn't an exact match for the Shure V15 IV or V. That's not to say it doesn't sound good or track as well as an original, but the frequency response and cantilever resonance are different due to the materials used to manufacture the stylus. There are a few threads on here that show how playing with resistive and capacitive loading can get a JICO equipped Shure V15IV/V almost as ruler flat as with an OEM stylus. (As opposed to somewhat tilted up in response.)
 
tubewade said:
Malden, you can also fit one of your N35X or 35C,or N44GX and others like those onto the body of the M97x. I've done that and been pleased with it, more pleased than with the N97xE stylus on it.
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I just came across an older post of mine and I apparently did try the N35X in the M97xE body and liked it better...
 
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jrtrent said:
Not exactly dragged in; after all, the OP asked if his money might not be better spent on "a new, modern cartridge with a stylus," and who better to go to for information than Shure themselves?


Great description!


Nice post. This is the kind of feedback that helps people make choices. I'm sure you will report back if you try a new stylus on your M97xE, and it sounds like the OP is leaning toward trying a stylus or two for his V15 IV. Nobody has chimed in yet with PS-T2 experience, so whatever 6BQ5 discovers might help someone else with the same model.

There was a short thread a few months ago in which someone asked if the particular turntable to be used made much difference in cartridge selection, and I think most agree that it does. The M97xE, to my ears, has been a completely satisfying cartridge in both an LP12/Ittok setup as well as my current Rega RP3. As previously noted, it was not my favorite in either a Denon or a Well Tempered model. Much of the positive comment on it I've seen in this forum has come from Rega owners, and the reasonably positive review in TNT Audio used a Rega RB300 arm in a Michell GyroDec, where, unlike your experience in the TD 160, they noted, "The midrange and treble areas lack some air and definition, but the '97 somehow avoids sounding dull and boring. If anything, the music bursts forth with quite some enthusiasm." In my setup (RP3 with Audio by Van Alstine preamp), the M97xE gives me all I could hope for in terms of pace, rhythmic expression, and dynamics, along with a completely natural-sounding tonal balance that never calls attention to itself. I never even think about recording quality--I'm just swept away by the musical performance itself--but I know not everyone has this same experience with the M97xE.
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I don't give up easily, so I will give the M97xE another shot in a different turntable.
 
Well, I did it ... !! I bought a Jico SAS stylus for my V15 Type IV from a seller on eBay. It cost $244 with shipping included. There's a part of me that is excited and another that feels scared. That stylus is so expensive! What if it gets crushed or the cartridge is ruined or the world cracks and splinters?

-=- Boris
 
KentTeffeteller said:
I agree. My favorite V-15 of the series.
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Definitely agree. Have owned several. My first didn’t match well with a Carver and Macintosh receivers. Got a second chance when I got a Garrard Zero 100 for $23. Wasnt sure I would like it, so I got a EVG stylus from Gary at Voiceofmusicenthusiest. Sounded good using a Marantz 2270. Bought a JICO HE for it. Have it on my BR Dusl 1219. My second one was pure luck. Picked up a PE 3048 built by Dual. A rebadged 1225. Got cheap..$60. Seller never showed or mentioned a cart. After opening, I heard something rattled in the carton. It was a V15 III with a factory VR35HE stylus! Intact!!. Went on my early 1219 in the LR. Sounds great. They should bring it back!
 
6BQ5 said:
The second cartridge I received with my Sony PS-T2 is a Shure V15 Type IV. Unfortunately, the stylus is busted. Is there any way to tell if the cartridge is still in good enough working condition that would make a replacement stylus worthwhile? Could damage inflicted onto the stylus affect the cartridge?

I see there are many options for replacements, many of which cost some serious coin. The last thing I want to do is spend $150 - $250 for a stylus to put in a cartridge that doesn't work! I'd rather put that money into a high end stylus for my Stanton 681 or just get a new, modern cartridge with a stylus.

Thanks! :)

-=- Boris
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My 2c the aftermarket can sound very good but won't beat the original stylus being retipped as long as the original suspension is ok and your retipper can check that.
Chris
 
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