Shure V15 Versions and Variations

[wualta]

Could just be the VNSE5MRs were merely hand-picked VN5MRs. A practice not unheard-of..

But there are other little differences. The VN5MR had an "optimum" VTF of 1.0g and the VNSE5MR bumps this up to 1.2g, yielding a claimed increase in tracking ability, so it's possible the compliance (and possibly the damping) was different.

Oh, and big thanks to DaveyW for posting the specs on the VST V.

 

[Charlie S]

Thank you jbrainey and DaveyW for the V15V-MRLE and VST V posts. Good info to have!

If the VST V's 400 Hz and 10kHz trackability specs at 1.2g are normalized to 1.0g they agree exactly with those of the V15V-MR. It's curious that trackability specs at 1kHz and 5kHz are not also given for the VST V (as was Shure's practice)?

The Ultra 500 also had "optimum" VTF of 1.2g, but when normalized to 1.0g the trackability values are significantly higher than the V15V-MR at all four specified frequencies. The Ultra 500 had less damping and slightly lower effective tip mass (0.165mg vice 0.170 mg).

 

[js1138]

There's the V15 III with a special mount for Dual TTs. Maybe other Dual versions.

 

[NoTransistors]

V15RS is a V15 IV I have 2 of them it has already been discussed in another thread and confirmed by Shure

Not according to the hugely-famous [or at least hugely-talented] Mr. Kita, the designer of the Type III. I spoke to him about just this, and his answer contradicts your supposition.

 

[dlaloum]

As noted in my measured specs posting earlier - the V15IV and V15RS specifications are substantially different (inductance/resistance)

The V15Vx and V15RS specifications are identical

The styli were however different - the Vx received an MR stylus where the RS had a HE - but both were mounted on beryllium tube cantilevers and with the damper brush.

 

[burlyb]

Does anyone know of an example where a V15III-DU (Dual specific - cart glued to the head shell) has been modified to be mounted to other headshells? These don't have sleeves for mounting screws.

 

[NoTransistors]

The only way to use the Dual-specific Type III [and there are at least two styles, glue-in and clip-in], seems to be to get a non-working chrome Type III, and install the [DU] cartridge body into the chrome housing.

And if the V15 carts had laminated pole pieces from the Type II Improved foward, then the RS and Vx models [non-laminated pole pieces] are nothing more than M91ED with fancy styli, right? And the M91ED is nothing more than a V15 Original with a different housing.

Cartridges, just like all other components, are more than just specifications and suggested retail prices. You need to listen. This is why I fell in love with the ML-140HE over the V15xMR. Lots of engineering went into this little beauty, and my ears really appreciate it.
I had several of the V15RS that I got a good deal on, and sold them all.

 

[flavio81]

V15-III-g (spherical)

The cartridge body is the same (V15-III), the difference is the stylus (VN35G) which is spherical. Spherical (G) versions were available for the V15-III and V15-IV, as far as i know, and most probably also they were available for the II and I. I don't know if they were available for later V15 models.

Congrats on the OP for starting this thread.

 

[midfi]

WOW jbrainey!!!! that's sweet! I bet it went for a premium!!! I'd put that in my safe next to my stampers (damaged) of a Robert Johnson record. I have the original up to the V, never had any of the others.

 

[kconnor]

Thanks for the V15II Imp. - any more info about that one?

The RS appears to be identical to the V15Vx (with the exception of the Vx being equipped with an MR stylus, where the RS had an HE)

Why do you say it is not a V15?
What are your criteria for something to be a V15?

The first part of this statement is true. Published specs for the V15RS and V15x, coil inductance and resistance are identical. So are measured values across frequency up to 20kHz. I've posted the measurements a couple of times before, concrete evidence that supports the alikeness of the two.
Detractors have not presented any substantiation to the contrary.
Like the man said "More data, less wank".

V15RS is a V15 IV I have 2 of them it has already been discussed in another thread and confirmed by Shure

Shure's customer service does the best it can. The fact is that some of the information they dispense regarding cartridge/ stylus compatibility is incorrect. Particularly when it comes to the V15.

 

[jsixis]

Never heard of him, all I can say is Ed Saunders told me it was a VIV and the stylus I bought fits and sounds better then the original stylus which had to have been worn.

Some people just can't fathom re badging

Not according to the hugely-famous [or at least hugely-talented] Mr. Kita, the designer of the Type III. I spoke to him about just this, and his answer contradicts your supposition.

 

[robgmn]

I bought my brother a V15VMR for a Christmas present way-back-when.

I've heard that while it is considered a reasonable cartridge for the price (maybe a small cult following?), a replacement stylus is an animal that is extinct.

Is there such a thing as an aftermarket stylus (Google seems to do little more than steer me to sponsored sites as of late)?

 

[dlaloum]

Shure was at one time probably the largest cartridge manufacturer in the world, and at that time they invested substantially in efforts to make the "ultimate cartridge" - their take on this was ultimately the V15VMR (and a bit later the VST-V, and Ultra500 both of which were updated versions of the V15VMR).

They are widely regarded as a top cartridge, and were widely used by recording engineers to monitor the end results of their efforts.

Some reviews are to be found here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=39825
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=13482
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=1773

This one is for the later (inferior, IMO) model that replaced the V15VMR, the V15VxMR..
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44702

Yes there are a number of aftermarket styli available.

These range from economy pfanstiehl and ed saunders models ($50 to $100)
http://www.edsaunders.com/shurestylus.htm
To the closest thing to the origina OEM shure high tech stylus available today - The Jico SAS
http://www.turntableneedles.com/JICO-SAS-needle-773-Dsas-for-Shure-V15VMR-VN5MR_p_3879.html
http://www.lpgear.com/product/e007494.html
http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?products_id=1522&osCsid=m8nq3onrnj2juquh58g831ohd5
Some consider it superior to the original - regardless it is excellent!

With a SAS mounted the V15V body is quite capable of competing with cartridge designs currently retailing in the $500 to $1500 category.

Like any cartridge it has strenghts and weaknesses.... and some prefer one cartridge to another - but the V15V is not to be sneezed at!

bye for now

David

 

[stereofanboy]

Thanks for the info on the V 15 III-DU. I've been wondering about that.

 

[mackat]

I have a VMR, and it sounds quite VERY nice!


Ben aka MacKat

 

[mackat]

Dlaloum, do you think the original VMR stylus is close or equal to the JICO?


Ben aka MacKat

 

[dlaloum]

Hi Ben,

They are different....

I will (soon?) be directly comparing the OEM and the SAS styli....

Looking at them in terms of the technology that has gone into them, they are on a par.

The SAS has a solid boron cantilever, with a sophisticated rear tensioning wire system - this results in multiple resonances (12k, 16k, 28k) - all well controlled, and a rigid yet lightweight cantilever... so a low effective tip mass resulting in great dynamics (low inertia, it can react quickly!)

The original VN5MR, was a beryllium tube - substantially lighter again (better), and had its first resonance (by reputation - I will measure to confirm in due course!) at 35kHz - this means a clean 20-20kHz region with no resonance "peaks" through it.... (very good!)
So the original cantilever was (theoretically) better...

The needle itself is the exact same design in both, ie: the shape is the Namiki patented one (which is sold by various companies under differing names - MicroRidge, MicroLine, etc...) - however the SAS export stylus is a finer version of this shape than the original OEM Shure stylus. (so one up for the SAS - a finer edge results in lower distortion in the high frequencies, along with better tracking - less sibiliance and inner groove distortion... again theoretically)

Can you expect both of these to sound exceptionally good - YES
Can you expect them to sound alike - NO
The human ear can sense variations in frequency/amplitude of less than 0.5db (although we detect them not as loudness variation but tonal variation or additional detail, soundstaging etc... psycho acoustics is very interesting!)
The resonances within the audio range of the SAS have an audible effect.
Note: - this effect is not necessarily negative, as it may balance out the natural drop in High frequency amplitude that most high inductance cartridges have. (even 320mH is relatively high inductance compared to MC's...)

The difference between SAS and OEM also means that if your objective is to get a response that as closely as possible mimics the OEM stylus, then you will almost certainly have to use a custom cartridge loading setup...
(and this is one of the main reasons I am planning on testing and comparing OEM to SAS... I am trying to work out what setup on the SAS will best replicate the original design "sound" of the Shure OEM Stylus)

Do I think the SAS is "as good" as the OEM VN5MR - Yes I do.

But it is definitely not the same (some people like it better!).

bye for now

David

 

[cairns4me]

The only way to use the Dual-specific Type III [and there are at least two styles, glue-in and clip-in], seems to be to get a non-working chrome Type III, and install the [DU] cartridge body into the chrome housing.

And if the V15 carts had laminated pole pieces from the Type II Improved foward, then the RS and Vx models [non-laminated pole pieces] are nothing more than M91ED with fancy styli, right? And the M91ED is nothing more than a V15 Original with a different housing.

Cartridges, just like all other components, are more than just specifications and suggested retail prices. You need to listen. This is why I fell in love with the ML-140HE over the V15xMR. Lots of engineering went into this little beauty, and my ears really appreciate it.
I had several of the V15RS that I got a good deal on, and sold them all.

I have transplanted several Dual V15-III's into M95 series mounting shells and done carefully they perform brilliantly..The cartridge "capsules" of V15-III & M95 are identical.. Cheers

 

[dlaloum]

I have transplanted several Dual V15-III's into M95 series mounting shells and done carefully they perform brilliantly..The cartridge "capsules" of V15-III & M95 are identical.. Cheers

Same shape - different guts... different inductance and impedance... the V15III capsule is superior....

 

[dlaloum]

And if the V15 carts had laminated pole pieces from the Type II Improved foward, then the RS and Vx models [non-laminated pole pieces] are nothing more than M91ED with fancy styli, right? And the M91ED is nothing more than a V15 Original with a different housing.

Not quite - they are the same "Shape" housing - the contents of that housing are different (as shown by the varying inductance and impedance).

There is a saying - if the measurements do not reflect experiential reality, then you are not measuring the right things.... and the trick is in working out what measurement is relevant! No magic in this, other than "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - unfortunately us cavemen types have trouble with numbers....

I think that's why MC's are so successful... cavemen can only count to three (1,2,3 ... MANY) - and MC's go no higher than 3mH.....:thmbsp:

bye for now

David