Starting from scratch, gambling on vintage: Venturing the unknown w/Pioneer SX-450

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willow238

New Member
Hey everyone! New girl here, FINALLY funneling my love of vintage, DIY, and technology into the world of audio. Been lurking around like crazy over the past few days. Amazing resource you've built! I've learned a TON but am still a lost puppy and need a bit of direction to build my first real sound system from the ground up. I've got a receiver on the way, but I don't know what to do next, other than acquire some speakers.

I'm on a very tight budget, I wanted a system made of versatile components, so I can rearrange and upgrade as necessary, so I figured a vintage receiver/amp was a good place to start for quality audio at a good price.

I took a gamble and bought a Pioneer SX-450 on eBay for $55 since the specs seemed appropriate for my rookie needs (reliable, entry level '70s model for a small apartment) Allegedly works "great," but that's all TBD. (Slight chance I'll end up having paid too much for the condition it's in but if so, that's ok, I can resell)

So, two questions!
1) What should I look for in determining its condition/sound quality?
2) Speakers: I don't have any. I need to pick some up to test the receiver (and potentially use with its replacement if it's not worth keeping).

I was considering the $100 Sony SS-B3000 or the $45(!!) Dayton Audio B652, since my needs are modest and my budget low. But are these "great quality for the price" speakers actually worth it (for a non-audiophile listening to mp3s) or will they do my receiver a noticeable injustice? I also don't like to buy new what I can get used/cheaper, so I'm looking around Craigslist for some higher quality used ones, but is it worth the risk if I don't have much know how in that area? How do I determine optimum compatibility with my receiver, and how do I "test" them properly? Speakers seem to be something that you're better off buying new unless you're well versed in quality control, especially since most of them that are in my budget are less likely to hold their quality over time (at least compared to receivers).

Any tips greatly appreciated, and please excuse my ignorance :) I definitely hope to be in the position to contribute more my new hobby picks up steam.
 
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Welcome!

Sounds like fun. The Pioneer is a pretty low powered receiver at only 15 watts per side, I believe.

50 for it? Don't really know if that's a great price for that model. As, far as speakers. The Sonys are probably the better speaker of the two--three way design, more bottom end than the Daytons (which remind me very much of a slightly older version of a cheap KLH bookshelf before they all but disappeared--I have a pair somewhere, they're a little muddy in their mids).

Of course those Sonys are not that efficient at 88 db and might like more power than your Pioneer has to offer?

I'm sure others will chime in!

cnh2
 
Sx-450

Hi Willow!

Welcome to the club! Beautiful receiver. Great start to the hobby.

I've been looking at your receiver online and came across this thread on AK:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=56132

Good discussion about the SX-450.

To answer your questions:

1) Until you hook it up to speakers it's hard to say the condition. Once you do, and you start operating the volume, function selectors, tone controls, balance etc. you can listen for any scratchiness / crackling which 99% of the time just means the controls need a squirt of cleaner.

2) It's only 15 watts per channel which is probably perfect because you said you live in an apartment. Don't let the power rating discourage you - I have a 20 watt per channel integrated amp that fills the house up with sound.

Speakers are such a personal thing, I think it would be best for you to go listen to some. I would never buy speakers off CL or Ebay because you don't know if the drivers all work.

The physical size of the speaker or the number of drivers ( three way, two way etc ) can be surprisingly deceiving. It all boils down to the design. I've heard spectacular sound from either and you'd be surprised how good some mid size or bookshelf speakers can sound. My advice is go to a few stereo stores and listen to a smattering of them to get a feel for how they sound and get feel for what you want, then start hunting for a set once you've sorted out what you want.

Because of the power rating of your receiver, I would consider looking at high efficiency speakers like Cerwin Vegas. They tend to do more with less power ( ie sound pressure output per 1 watt of input ). Low efficiency speakers will not be your friend here. They need a ton of power to sound right.

Hope this helps!
 
For that wattage, the pioneer hpm 100 will be affordable and be loud enough to wake up the neighbors, watch out for clipping at that low of watts though
 
Hopefully your amp works just fine.

Maybe check out all the local Pawn Shops but take someone with you that 'knows'.

Even old '89 Sony amps sounded really nice. I know, I have one, they are quality builds and sound really nice. If your only putting together a system to 'listen to' you couldn't go wrong with an old '89 Sony amp/receiver. Why? It sounds really good and it's not 'that old', I.E. dependable, and the radio section is great, and is much more powerful than 15 watts per channel, it's like 70 watts per channel. The older vintage amps have old componets that do fail. Same with vintage speakers, maybe even worse. Old capacitors in the crossovers (electronics) and old individual speakers (voice coils, etc)

Always test the used speakers first. Listen for vibrations. Any vibrations...you don't want it. Any damage to the speakers inside the cabinet, don't buy it. If the sound is crisp, good treble/midrange/woofer (base) it's good. If it sounds dull, flat, muddy, or 'just not right' in any way...don't buy it. You would be better off buying brand new bottom line pair of Cherwin Vegas from Best Buy. Speakers are 70% of the sound of a stereo. Speakers are the #1 important thing in the system. That's what you listen to.

Sounds like you on a tight budget. If so, check out eBay and you can get a pair of 1970 AS-100 Acoustic Suspension speakers for about $42 a pair if you can find them. They do 'pop up' from time to time but also cost $40 to ship in the mail. Adjustable really fine sounding tweeter and one 10 inch AlNiCo woofer. They come in 23" high cabinets. And they sound old school and 'fine'. I have 3 each, one single one for spare parts and the spare part one sounds as fine as the other minty two, I really like them, the 'big box sound' in a 23" high speaker. But buying old speakers is always a gamble. I think what you would want 'bookshelf' type speakers.

Questons: We will be glad to help you but we need to know exactly the following:

1. What are your stereo goals. For a 'vintage system', or just a good sounding system for not a lot of money??, Or a nice sounding system for a bit more money?

2. What is your 'total complete' budget? We can give you better advice if we know your 'total budget' for your stereo system equipment.

3. Are you going to get a CD player?

4. Are you going to get a turntable (record player)?? (those can get expensive)

5. Do you want a straight 2 channel setup without a sub woofer or do you want to also have a subwoofer? In an apartment a sub may be too much. You know, you will have neighbors.

Buying 'vintage' is an involvement usually with losses. It happens, it's vintage. But once you have a nice 'vintage system', it does really sound nice.

If all your looking for is a 'really nice sounding stereo system', for not a lot of money, that's much easier to put together for not a lot of money.

Hope this helps.

And don't be in a hurry to buy anything! Don't be pressured by no-one. Take your time. It pays off BIG in the long run.
 
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If your preference is for new speakers or at least to get something now, I'd check out the Pioneer SP-BS21-LR Bookshelf speaks at Newegg at 1/2 price for $50. They've been raved about on various forums. Sale ends tomorrow. I don't own them, but am tempted myself to check them out . They can also be found at Best Buy.
 
Wow! You guys are at once speedy and thorough. Thanks.

bluesky said:
1. What are your stereo goals. For a 'vintage system', or just a good sounding system for not a lot of money??, Or a nice sounding system for a bit more money?
Click to expand...

Music isn't so much my primary hobby, but partially because I don't have a decent sound system. I went for a vintage receiver w/ speakers over something like a high quality iPod dock, partially for the nostalgia factor (my dad had a great set up in the early '80s) but also for some reliability and versatility....while I don't think I'll be in the market to fully "upgrade" within the next couple years, I want to be able to add additional equipment or use them in different parts of the apartment if I come across something nicer, not replace everything.

bluesky said:
2. What is your 'total complete' budget? We can give you better advice if we know your 'total budget' for your stereo system equipment.
Click to expand...

I'd honestly rather not spend more than $100 on speakers (so $155 total? I know, I am cheap/poor) If a contender is a great "bang" for my buck and I can spend $50, great. However, value is important, so if there was one that would get me significantly more quality for a little more than $100, it's worth it.

bluesky said:
3. Are you going to get a CD player?

4. Are you going to get a turntable (record player)?? (those can get expensive)
Click to expand...

Neither is an immediate goal to own, but if I got a hand-me-down turntable, I'd use it.

bluesky said:
5. Do you want a straight 2 channel setup without a sub woofer or do you want to also have a subwoofer? In an apartment a sub may be too much. You know, you will have neighbors.
Click to expand...

No need for a sub. Big city with small spaces (and thin walls).

bluesky said:
And don't be in a hurry to buy anything! Don't be pressured by no-one. Take your time. It pays off BIG in the long run.
Click to expand...

Great advice! I just have to make sure I don't obsess over the purchase too much and actually buy something! Thanks again.
 
Grog: Very helpful! I'm a bit confused on what constitutes high vs low efficiency. I'm still trying to figure out what the deal with ohms is. (And, I suppose, if those two things are at all related...)
 
Putterman said:
If your preference is for new speakers or at least to get something now, I'd check out the Pioneer SP-BS21-LR Bookshelf speaks at Newegg at 1/2 price for $50. They've been raved about on various forums. Sale ends tomorrow. I don't own them, but am tempted myself to check them out . They can also be found at Best Buy.
Click to expand...

I don't know those speakers but for the price I sure would be checking those out, and maybe buying them too if I was Willow238!

Nice find Putterman. Sounds like nice speakers really cheap!

:thmbsp:
 
Putterman said:
If your preference is for new speakers or at least to get something now, I'd check out the Pioneer SP-BS21-LR Bookshelf speaks at Newegg at 1/2 price for $50. They've been raved about on various forums. Sale ends tomorrow. I don't own them, but am tempted myself to check them out . They can also be found at Best Buy.
Click to expand...

I'm looking into it now, thanks for the tip.
 
Willow - Highs are the treble, lows are the bass.

"ohms" is a specification, an electronic rating for resistance. No sense getting into the weeds in electrical engineering except to know that typically home stereo amplifiers and receivers are designed to work with 8 ohm impedance speakers. You'll see it on the back of most speakers - they show the value usually where you hook the wires up. That is what your receiver was designed to work with.

Basically, you want 8 ohm speakers. There are the rare 6 ohm and 4 ohm speakers out there, usually car stereo stuff but there have been some low impedance home speakers. Low impedance ( 6 ohm and 4 ohm ) can cause your receiver to run warmer and if you really crank it up it could trip protection circuits.
 
Willow

You might find your money better spent on a decent pair of vintage speakers.

They tend to be higher efficiency. (that's the db rating you see in the specs) and sound good with older receivers. And most importantly they can be had on the cheap.

Where are you located? There might be a AK member local to you who might part with a special set from his stash. (This is where becoming a member has it's perks. You can shop in barter town) CL and garage sales are also great places to look for speakers.

Good luck with your search.

Enjoy

Eric
 
62sunbeam said:
Where are you located? There might be a AK member local to you who might part with a special set from his stash. (This is where becoming a member has it's perks. You can shop in barter town) CL and garage sales are also great places to look for speakers.

Eric
Click to expand...

NYC. Lotsa vintage loving music fans around these parts, I'd imagine
 
Personally I'd suggest to not over think it- don't worry about watts, or ohms or any of this other dreary technical stuff. Go to your local thrift store and see if you can find some speakers that look to be in decent shape, esthetically pleasing and of decent build quality- if they look and feel cheap, they'll sound cheap. You'll find something in your budget there, although it make a take a few trips. Take them home, plug them in and if they work, enjoy. If not, return them.

If you find you enjoy the sound and want to get more involved, you can always upgrade later, as you find deals and gain knowledge about all the dreary technical stuff. But in the meantime you'd have an enjoyable system that makes you happy.
 
Willow I was reading reviews on those and one guy said they weren't very efficient.

Lots of different comments on them. I'd go listen to them at a local Pioneer dealer before I bought them - after all you have to live with them.

Regarding the safety of running 6 ohm speakers? Well, the only advice I can give is that modern amps can take a variation of impedance a bit better than vintage amps. I haven't seen the service manual or owner's manual for the SX-450 to see if it can run 6 ohm speakers. It could make your amp work harder, and being that it is 30+ years old its ability to handle loads like that could be taxing on it. You could possibly cause it to trip its protection circuits if you ran it at high volumes for a while, but judging from your posts I don't think you'll be doing that in your apartment.

Still, I'd try to stay in spec and find a good set of 8 ohm speakers or vintage 8 ohm speakers.

Google "running 6 ohm speakers with 8 ohm amp" and start reading. Lots of opinions. Gist of it is, the newer the amp the better it can handle the extra work. You are dealing with a vintage receiver here, and the electronics may still be fine for standard 8 ohm speakers but could start acting up if you go out of spec.
 
Thrifts are great too.

Basically if they are made of thick, heavy walled veneer covered wood and they weigh a lot and have good heavy duty connectors you're usually on to something.

I don't know how DIY you are but a very good pair of speakers with bad surrounds can be had on the cheap and fixed for usually less than $20. If you find a pair like that we can talk you through the process.

Good luck

Eric
 
Welcome to AK Willow! As you are finding out, there is a great bunch of guys and gals on here who can help out with almost any question or questions you need answered. There is no such thing as a dumb question when you are just starting out, so don't be afraid to ask.

A big +1 on looking at thrifts for speakers, you can find some amazing things there, also Craigslist, if you are patient and look around, you can find some excellent stuff for very little money, I found my HPM-100's for $125 by just being patient and looking. Also, if it turns out your SX-450 needs repair, post a thread in the Pioneer forum, there are lots of techs there (Yes, including me :D) who can assist you in getting it back up and running.
 
I believe those Pioneer speakers are rated at 84db. With your receiver you would want a speaker that's 90db or higher. I am going to send you a PM with a link to some speakers that would work well with your receiver. Put them on a bookshelf or speaker stands if you like.
 
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Just another vote for considering vintage speakers. There isn't much that can go wrong with speakers compared with an amp, turntable etc. I have had tremendous luck picking up excellent speakers at thrift stores (the classic move is where people buy a "home theatre system", and dump their old stereo). And I would second Eric's advice about going with weight. The heavier (denser) the speaker, the more likely it is made well, with thick cabinet walls and speakers with big magnets. Give them a listen at the store to be sure that they work. And refoaming a woofer is no harder than putting together a plastic model. No electronics, just be tidy.

Best of luck with your new adventure.
 
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