Stylus overhang gauge?

[Taketheflame]

Hey all,

Just curious about another aspect of TT setup that I haven't given much thought to before (seems like I'm always learning something new in this hobby, or trying to, lol).

I'm aware of how to do some other basic things like aligning a cartridge with a Baerwald protractor, and setting VTA. But I keep reading about people mentioning stylus overhang when swapping cartridges.

I mainly ask, because I want to start trying other cartridges w/my Pioneer PL-550 soon, and I want to make sure I'm installing them correctly. I'm hoping to continue using the stock headshell (the JP-503) if possible.

According to the spec sheet, the correct stylus overhang is 15.5mm. Do I simply need to find an overhang gauge for this length, and just line up a new cartridge in the headshell until the stylus touches the line on the gauge? or is it more complicated than that?

 

[spark1]

Deleted.

 

[bang4buck]

Very thorough explanation from @spark1

The 15.5mm figure would mostly come into play with a fixed headshell. But AR also specified overhang that way, and supplied a matching gauge, because their headshell had fixed screw holes and overhang could only be adjusted at the pivot block.

 

[spark1]

Deleted.

 

[4-2-7]

I'm aware of how to do some other basic things like aligning a cartridge with a Baerwald protractor, and setting VTA. But I keep reading about people mentioning stylus overhang when swapping cartridges.

What your confused about is two different terminologies and they are done at the same time with the protractor, Alignment and Overhang.

Overhang is the distance from the tonearm bearing to the stylus tip. Different tables and tonearms used different setups. We generally set the overhang with a standardize protractor that has two null points. We adjust the cartridge or tonearm base longer or shorter till we can place the tip of the stylus on both null points.



See the two black dots?

Alignment of the cartridge is done at the same time as the cartridge is getting moved around for overhang. See the lines and the side of the cartridge body?



Depending on tonearm, head shell, cartridge and protractor, the cartridge might not line up all that great. The tonearm might have a fixed head shell like the SME Series V above, in that case it's fine, it's far more important to get the overhang right.

 

[spark1]

Deleted.

 

[bang4buck]

For some reason this subject always seems to get out of hand. I’m afraid some people like to make it more complicated than it is.

Overhang is the difference between the effective length of the tonearm and the distance between the platter spindle and the tonearm pivot. You can set the length by measuring the overhang, or the other way around, it’s the same thing.

Your tonearm is obviously mounted at the correct distance (since it’s a complete turntable and arm package), so all you need to do is keep the cartridge straight in the headshell and place the stylus tip at the effective length from the pivot. You now have the alignment that Pioneer intended.

The reason we need to do this at all is that cartridges aren’t standardized.

One complication that does exist is that you may prefer a different alignment geometry than the one Pioneer built into the tonearm. But that’s your choice.

 

[spark1]

For some reason this subject always seems to get out of hand. I’m afraid some people like to make it more complicated than it is..

I don't see that the subject is getting out of hand, and frankly thought that my posts were clear, concise, courteous, informative and correct. In any case, the OP never responded anyway...so I will go ahead and delete the content of my posts.

Certainly didn't realize that I was making it complicated.

 

[tnsilver]

Overhang is the distance from the tonearm bearing to the stylus tip.

That's effective length, not overhang. Overhang is the distance the stylus tip "overhangs" beyond the spindle when the tonearm is directly above it. That is the same as the difference between effective length and pivot to spindle (a.k.a 'mounting') distance.

 

[Taketheflame]

So - essentially what I've gotten out of this thread is that as long as I'm aligning my cartridge to a Baerwald (or Stevenson, or w/e other alignment standards), then I'm OK?

I wouldn't say the end of the cantilever/stylus tip stuck out past the front of the headshell when I did the alignment, but was maybe just behind the front of it. In any case, the stylus was touching the dots when using a Baerwald protractor - and I'm getting zero tracking issues or inner groove distortion - and this is with only a bonded elliptical stylus on a cartridge that's technically a compliance mismatch for the arm (15 cu compliance @ 100 hz, so possibly as high as 30 cu @ 10 hz).

I'm actually thinking of trying out a technics style headshell on this table too (one of the generic chrome ones for sale on the infamous auction site). Is the technics style headshell longer than the Pioneer one?

 

[tnsilver]

If you can find a Pio gauge it would make it easier with the Pio stock arm and headshell but there's a trick which is all about measuring 49mm between the black rubber coupler at the connector stub and the stylus tip - like this:

Now let's make it complicated. Overhang is a pretty useless parameter on its own. It works in conjunction with the offset angle and the mounting distance and determines the location of the two null points on the arc of a radial tonearm, where the stylus is tangent to the groove. You don't care about that. Protractors work geometry backwards and your overhang will be set if you do it right.

If you use a protractor and follow the instructions, which vary between a single point 'stupid' protractor, a two point protractor and an arc protractor, you'd be setting up a specific geometry for your tonearm. Baerwald, Stevenson and Lofgren alignements are the three fundamental methods (null point distances really) that offer different solutions to the tracking error problem, each with their own account of what's ideal. That tracking error is caused by a radial tonearm trying to follow a groove that was made by a linear cutting head. An arc needs to follow a straight line. It doesn't gel 100%.

While one mathematician would try to average the tracking error across the entire record (Baerwald), the other would emphasize correction to the inner grooves where the issue is more acute (Stevenson) or concentrate on the area between the null points (Lofgren). They are by no means the only alignment methods - and different manufacturers mainly follow their own proprietary alignment that is a spin off one or the other basic methods and are optimized for their own geometry.

So it boils down to which protractor you're gonna be using. I don't think Pio used any of the three per-se and I'd be guessing their setup is closer to Stevenson than any of the others (but I'm not sure). If it was me, I'd keep it Pio. The way to do it is to download Conrad Hofman's TemplateGen software, punch in the tonearm's geometry figures, and print out a Pio protractor that's ideal for a Pio tonearm.

 

[Montycat]

That's effective length, not overhang. Overhang is the distance the stylus tip "overhangs" beyond the spindle when the tonearm is directly above it. That is the same as the difference between effective length and pivot to spindle (a.k.a 'mounting') distance.

Thanks for clarifying that. I was going to say something too but you beat me to it.

One thing that does bug me is that there are a number of manufacturers that refer to overhang but they are often doing so on turntables that are semi or full automatic. You can't actually get the tonearm to "overhang" the spindle without engaging the return action so it is a pretty useless parameter unless they also provide some other way of measuring it.

 

[tnsilver]

Andrew you're right. It's pretty useless on it's own but think of the overhang as an abstract geometrical term. It doesn't really matter if the tonearm can, or cannot, reach the spindle. Mathematically, the overhang is still there along with the offset angle and mounting distance.

 

[Montycat]

Andrew you're right. It's pretty useless on it's own but think of the overhang as an abstract geometrical term. It doesn't really matter if the tonearm can, or cannot, reach the spindle. Mathematically, the overhang is still there along with the offset angle and mounting distance.

Of course. But if they backed up the overhang spec with a simple arc protractor diagram, which could illustrate overhang well if the arc drawn passed the spindle, or a gauge like the Pioneer or Technics that would be handy. Marantz, and a few others, of course had their 45 adaptors with the markings on them that would show it.

 

[tnsilver]

Gotcha! Ideally it would be nice if they all threw in a gauge with the turntable but once they spec up the overhang, offset angle and P2S distance - that imaginary arc is as good as drawn b/c that's all the data you need to draw it.

 

[4-2-7]

Overhang is the distance from the tonearm bearing to the stylus tip

That's effective length, not overhang.

Protractors work geometry backwards and your overhang will be set if you do it right.

Measuring the length from the pivot bearing to the tip if the stylus with a protractor gets you the overhang. Are we using semantics here?

Thanks for clarifying that.

You can't actually get the tonearm to "overhang" the spindle without engaging the return action so it is a pretty useless parameter unless they also provide some other way of measuring it.

And why you use a protractor for the overhang.
Those SME arms up there don't swing over the spindle, they have a stop and you adjust the arm so it stops before hitting the label. The overhang is set by moving the base and using a protractor. I can't remember a table I had that did so, my Marantz 6200 did, and in conjunction with the 45rpm adaptor, that was your protractor and all one needs for that table to set alignment and overhang.

Just checked my 1200 Mk II, Michel Gyro SE and Techno arm, they all stop before the spindle, but you set the over hang on them with the null points of a protractor.

 

[4-2-7]

So - essentially what I've gotten out of this thread is that as long as I'm aligning my cartridge to a Baerwald (or Stevenson, or w/e other alignment standards), then I'm OK?

If your hitting two null points correctly your good to go.
Zero antiskate
Zero balance the arm.
Set approximate weight again of tracking force.
If you have VTA, set that so as the arm looks parallel to the record when cued down
Use your protractor to set your overhang hitting both null points correctly, at the same time check your cartridge alignment adjust if needed or possible.
Double check your VTF again and set it to where it needs to be.
Set your antiskate to the same value as VTF

Play records, a few of them to see if something is amiss,

 

[lini]

Measuring the length from the pivot bearing to the tip if the stylus with a protractor gets you the overhang. Are we using semantics here?

That has nothing to do with semantics. You're simply wrong, and Tom is right, 'cause the distance from the pivot point to the needle tip indeed is the effective length, and the overhang is the effective length minus the mounting distance (alias spindle to pivot distance).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[j!m]

I will never use “overhang” as a set up parameter. It is a product of the alignment; not an input for alignment.

If you have removable headshells, pick up several on eBay. Mount each cartridge in its own shell and go through the proper two point alignment with the protractor of choice for each one.

I have a Rega table (and arm) but I use Baerwald alignment with it. My cartridge is further out and twisted slightly in the headshell because of that. If I just used “straight overhang” for my set up, the cartridge would not be parallel to the grooves (it would be parallel to the headshell) and that would give increased tracing distortion (best case) and ruin records and the stylus (worst case).

Remember: “I use records for the massive cost and increased inconvenience .”

 

[ETI_5000]

The problem is that many overhang gauges which were sold new with turntables tended to get put in drawers and forgotten about, so that future owners of the turntable can’t use them. That’s why having an alignment (overhang) mark on the turntable to line the stylus up with, as some old JVC turntables had (e.g. JL-A40, QL-A2 etc) or a protractor on the back of the rubber platter mat, as Sony used to do with some turntables (e.g. PS-X600), was a very good idea.

One thing that does bug me is that there are a number of manufacturers that refer to overhang but they are often doing so on turntables that are semi or full automatic. You can't actually get the tonearm to "overhang" the spindle without engaging the return action so it is a pretty useless parameter unless they also provide some other way of measuring it.

With turntables where it was necessary to move the tonearm over the centre spindle, it was necessary to switch the power off (or remove the plug from the power socket), so that they couldn’t go into their automatic arm return while the overhang was being done. For instance, some Akai turntables (e.g. the semi-auto AP-D33) had overhang marks on the back of the platter mat, and to use them, the power needed to be off so that the tonearm could be moved over to the centre. In the user guide, Akai specifically told you to unplug the turntable from the power, before doing the adjustment. Then it was just a simple matter to adjust the cartridge in the headshell so that the stylus was in the correct spot, lined up with the overhang ring on the back of the platter mat.