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Subwoofer with vintage system?
- Thread starter Bruce P
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sloatsburgbo
Active Member
I have a Monoprice sub paired with a Realistic STA-77A, a pair of Infinity SM65's and a Teac EQ20 and love the sound. Nothing wrong with melding the old with the new.
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RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
Yeah, I agree... nothing wrong with the old/new combo. I have the same thing going with my system. I have an old amp, a not quite so old turtable but use new speakers and sub. It works great.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
I am not a sub fan as most users don't properly match them to the main speakers they are using. They try to match the levels by ear and that just doesn't work Locating the subs is a real challenge also., So I would rather see the amount of money spent on two subs going toward purchasing two full range speaker systems. A lot of times that easier said than done.
Nabnassett
Well-Known Member
I don't believe adding a sub is a sin to any system. Naturally, that's can be a contentious statement to some but my feelings.
Seems to me that if powered subwoofers were as readily available back when vintage was new as they are now they'd have been the norm.
Seems to me that if powered subwoofers were as readily available back when vintage was new as they are now they'd have been the norm.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
From Bruce P.
The Yami sub is $50 ,its got a 10" woofer. I think it will pair well with my NS-20Ms.
Yes, especially if you take the time and make the effort to dial the subwoofer in properly.
Set the subs crossover to the -3dB point of the mains.
Adjust the sub's level so you can just barely hear it.
Then, turn it down a tad.
These three suggestions will get you to 90% of what measurements do.
If you can tell a subwoofer is being used it's not properly dialed in. The only time a sub should be noticed is when it's turned off. The lack of deep bass is immediately noticeable.
I've been using dual subs for 30+ years. While my gear and room may have changed my method of dialing in a sub using measurements has never changed. The measuring devices have changed for the better. It used to be a Radio Shack SLM and an LP with test tones using a 12 band linear equalizer for room correction. Nowadays it's a calibrated mic, REW (software) a laptop and a 12 band DSP. I measure set and forget.
Once a sub(s) is properly dialed in there is no need for further tweaking.
The Yami sub is $50 ,its got a 10" woofer. I think it will pair well with my NS-20Ms.
Yes, especially if you take the time and make the effort to dial the subwoofer in properly.
Set the subs crossover to the -3dB point of the mains.
Adjust the sub's level so you can just barely hear it.
Then, turn it down a tad.
These three suggestions will get you to 90% of what measurements do.
If you can tell a subwoofer is being used it's not properly dialed in. The only time a sub should be noticed is when it's turned off. The lack of deep bass is immediately noticeable.
I've been using dual subs for 30+ years. While my gear and room may have changed my method of dialing in a sub using measurements has never changed. The measuring devices have changed for the better. It used to be a Radio Shack SLM and an LP with test tones using a 12 band linear equalizer for room correction. Nowadays it's a calibrated mic, REW (software) a laptop and a 12 band DSP. I measure set and forget.
Once a sub(s) is properly dialed in there is no need for further tweaking.
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Pyrrho
Super Member
Interesting. I blame the user, not the equipment, for a failure to understand how to set things up. I do, however, agree that one needs to set up a subwoofer properly for it to work right. If one is unwilling or unable to do that, then the person would be better off buying speakers with a better bass response. That, however, tends to cost more than buying a good set of bookshelf speakers and a good subwoofer for the same level of performance., if the bookshelf speaker and subwoofer are properly set up.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
Whats a vintage system, that means tubes or the first generation of SS stuff to me. . Early 70's and older. Or are those considered to be antiques as they are 50+ years old. I have forgotten when IC's and modular outputs arrived upon the scene but that could be demarkation point, too. I know the sound quality changed a hole bunch when Time intermodulation distortion became the the thing to talk about. It sounded horrible when present. The Crown IC 150 pre-amp was a prime example.
Back to the subject., Speakers back in the 60's and early 70's were normally pretty efficient. Yes there were some AR and KLH models that were very in efficient at the time and we didn't have big amplifiers unless you considered Mcintosh K 107 or the MC 3500 that was introduced in 69. Besides a AR3 was only rated at 35 watts. Yes I would stack three or 4 of them and push them with a 3500. They didn't need a sub. Neither did the ML-1c and ML-2c when they came along. Everything else pretty much did and that includes EV's with their 18 inch woofers. Klipsch and Cornwalls did by todays standards only just reaching just below 40 Hertz. Even my Grands were only flat to 23 hz. Of course you could take a pair placed side by side and reach below 20 HZ. Thats why I preferred the panel 310's as you could mount them to a sturdy wall with a big closet behind them or radiating into another room or hall way and easily reach 16 HZ. So if you have pair of Klipsch horns, Altec Capistranos, or EV Patricians how do you reach 16 HZ. a double 13.5 inch JL sub or a dual 15 inch Magico sub. At least Infinity's line arrays could so Could Mcintosh with stacked ML-4's then you didn't need subs. But then you needed 1000 watts of power which was hard to come by at that time.
Now speakers from the 80's and 90's could do the job but you still needed big power. Oh there was the Patrician with the 30" woofer that was capable, but the transient and harmonic distortion were terrible making the speaker almost unlistenable. But you didn't need a sub. So like I said give me great full range speakers and save your money on expensive subs. My XR 28's that acquired two years ago reach below 20 HZ, and play loudly enough for me. 114 db at 1 meter. Being line arrays they only loose about 3 to 4 db every time you double the distance so at 4 meters thats about 107 or 108 db which is way more than enough for me. 100 db peak is about all I need. 100 watts for peaks is my normal serious listening level. Unless you pull out a Telarc or Sheffield recording that hasn't been compressed. Then Katy bar the door. Going to ped those meters and watch the power guard lights flash. Thats when I would need professional JBL modular line arrays with two JBL dual 18 inch subs. But class D amplifiers for me. I guess Mac still makes their 2000 watt amp. Did I hear 1/2 million for a sound system?
Back to the subject., Speakers back in the 60's and early 70's were normally pretty efficient. Yes there were some AR and KLH models that were very in efficient at the time and we didn't have big amplifiers unless you considered Mcintosh K 107 or the MC 3500 that was introduced in 69. Besides a AR3 was only rated at 35 watts. Yes I would stack three or 4 of them and push them with a 3500. They didn't need a sub. Neither did the ML-1c and ML-2c when they came along. Everything else pretty much did and that includes EV's with their 18 inch woofers. Klipsch and Cornwalls did by todays standards only just reaching just below 40 Hertz. Even my Grands were only flat to 23 hz. Of course you could take a pair placed side by side and reach below 20 HZ. Thats why I preferred the panel 310's as you could mount them to a sturdy wall with a big closet behind them or radiating into another room or hall way and easily reach 16 HZ. So if you have pair of Klipsch horns, Altec Capistranos, or EV Patricians how do you reach 16 HZ. a double 13.5 inch JL sub or a dual 15 inch Magico sub. At least Infinity's line arrays could so Could Mcintosh with stacked ML-4's then you didn't need subs. But then you needed 1000 watts of power which was hard to come by at that time.
Now speakers from the 80's and 90's could do the job but you still needed big power. Oh there was the Patrician with the 30" woofer that was capable, but the transient and harmonic distortion were terrible making the speaker almost unlistenable. But you didn't need a sub. So like I said give me great full range speakers and save your money on expensive subs. My XR 28's that acquired two years ago reach below 20 HZ, and play loudly enough for me. 114 db at 1 meter. Being line arrays they only loose about 3 to 4 db every time you double the distance so at 4 meters thats about 107 or 108 db which is way more than enough for me. 100 db peak is about all I need. 100 watts for peaks is my normal serious listening level. Unless you pull out a Telarc or Sheffield recording that hasn't been compressed. Then Katy bar the door. Going to ped those meters and watch the power guard lights flash. Thats when I would need professional JBL modular line arrays with two JBL dual 18 inch subs. But class D amplifiers for me. I guess Mac still makes their 2000 watt amp. Did I hear 1/2 million for a sound system?
An inexpensive sub, with only an 8" speaker, completely changed one of my small systems for the better. Some of us prefer bookshelf speakers that cannot reproduce a bottom-end that matches the rest of its range. Different strokes 'n such.
Some of the enjoyment of live music is what we might physically feel. Small speakers with little visceral impact is merely OK, for me, but never GREAT. YMMV, but for $50, it's a bargain investment towards, potentially, noticeably better sound. Both being Yamahas, there's a reasonable chance it'll be a good match. If you don't like it, you can probably get your $50 back by selling it.
Some of the enjoyment of live music is what we might physically feel. Small speakers with little visceral impact is merely OK, for me, but never GREAT. YMMV, but for $50, it's a bargain investment towards, potentially, noticeably better sound. Both being Yamahas, there's a reasonable chance it'll be a good match. If you don't like it, you can probably get your $50 back by selling it.
kwkshift
Well-Known Member
For vintage systems, these look nice:
https://rel.net/uk/shop/powered-sub...0flA15jl5dqfteMIJVeij2fdLrOzMrW4aAkxREALw_wcB
https://rel.net/uk/shop/powered-sub...0flA15jl5dqfteMIJVeij2fdLrOzMrW4aAkxREALw_wcB
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Having heard a Crown IC-150 on more than one occasion I totally agree with you regarding the sound of one.
OTOH: I think you meant TIM.
definition. Transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) occurs in amplifiers that employ negative feedback when signal delays make the amplifier incapable of correcting distortion when exposed to fast, transient signals.
I remember when TIM was the new thing to be measured. Yes, I'm that old.
