bimasta
Addicted Member
Now you got me worried. I never realized an arm mismatch could destroy the cartridge. I cherish my little trove of vintage carts too much for that.
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Supatrac Blackbird - new interesting (or not?) tonearm
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Compliance/mass matching is an interesting topic. I have noticed, from sorting through countless Japanese auctions, that the Japanese don't seem to put as much importance on it as westerners do. Of course, this is nothing more than anecdotal, and my perceptions could be faulty. That being said, I have seen listings with DL-103's mounted on low to medium mass tonearms, and high compliance Audio-Technica and ADC cartridges mounted on what seem to be fairly heavy arms. I wonder why this is.
patient_ot
Super Member
If you dig deep enough on the U.S. vinyl scene, you'll see plenty of old-school repair shops that sell used turntables, and they will just put whatever cart is sitting around in the "box 'o carts" on the turntable, whether or not it is a good match or even has a stylus that isn't worn to hell. Many people outside of audio nerd forums have no idea about basic turntable set up and maintenance. They throw their cartridges on any old way and do not know they are supposed to replace their styli at regular intervals. One guy I know didn't understand he was supposed to replace his stylus ever, and only asked me about it because the thing literally fell apart when the suspension on his cartridge collapsed. Another guy had been using alignment protractors the wrong way for years, and didn't understand the correct way until I showed him. People like this are far more common than forum dwellers realize.
My answer is that the whole complaince/mass thing matters less than many people think it does. Certainly the number are much more ambiguous than the common wisdom assumes - Japanese and western companies use different frequencies to measure compliance, and dampers age, the temperature changes, and so on, and meanwhile, arm mass changes with what headshell and mounting screws and nuts, and then changes again when the cartridge is aligned.
It may also matter that the trend toward very high compliance cartridges coincided with the explosion of record sales. This lead to faster and faster production, and more and more warped records, at least in the US, which lead in the high compliance thing - (ADC particularly,and Shure with most market penetration, with everyone else getting into the act). That meant that warp riding was a big deal. Meanwhile, in Japan, I suspect that warped records were simply unacceptable, so warp riding wasn't a significant issue.
It is true that tonal balance is affected by compliance/mass, but that can be a virtue. It was listening to an ADC XLM in a Yamaha arm with the standard Yamaha headshell - cast, and not low mass - that made me realize how variable the results can be. Very fine, though theory says it shouldn't be.
It may also matter that the trend toward very high compliance cartridges coincided with the explosion of record sales. This lead to faster and faster production, and more and more warped records, at least in the US, which lead in the high compliance thing - (ADC particularly,and Shure with most market penetration, with everyone else getting into the act). That meant that warp riding was a big deal. Meanwhile, in Japan, I suspect that warped records were simply unacceptable, so warp riding wasn't a significant issue.
It is true that tonal balance is affected by compliance/mass, but that can be a virtue. It was listening to an ADC XLM in a Yamaha arm with the standard Yamaha headshell - cast, and not low mass - that made me realize how variable the results can be. Very fine, though theory says it shouldn't be.
This is a very good point, and it may well explain what I have seen. I just didn't think that it would be the case in Japan, where turntables that would be considered very high-end in the US abound. Then again, if those are practically as common in Japan as the SL-1200MK2 is in the US, they may well be owned by the kind of people you've described.
patient_ot
Super Member
A few years ago I was in a small, high-end vintage furniture store. The only reason I went in there is because someone tipped me off that they had records in the back and some audio gear.
The selection of records was amazing. Racks of stuff you'd never see at common U.S. record shops in flyover country. Loads of early/first UK pressings of 70s reggae/dub albums and UK/EU late 70s/early post-punk, 90s indie, and so on. I pulled a big stack of records and went to a corner to inspect them before buying. Out of all those records, only one wasn't trashed. All of the others had nice jackets but looked like someone tried to clean the records with 60 grit sandpaper. I kid you not.
Over on the shelf with gear they had several B&O components and a very nice Oracle turntable, probably dating from the 80s. The Oracle was completely trashed, like someone chucked it in the back of an old pickup truck and let it rattle around in the bed while they drove fast on winding roads.
What I'm getting at here is just because someone has nice stuff, doesn't mean they necessarily take care of it or know how to set it up. A lot can happen when something goes to the second hand market.
That is an interesting anecdote! How unfortunate that the records and turntable were mistreated like that. I definitely see and agree with your point. Once things leave their original owners, there's no telling whose hands they'll end up in.
I was in São Paulo, Brazil, in 2019. I visited a number of record stores, hoping to buy some Brazilian records in nice condition, which aren't common in the US. Unfortunately, due to Brazil being a developing country (especially between the 60's and 80's, during the military dictatorship), most average people likely didn't have the money or resources to buy a nice turntable or replace their stylus often. A lot of the records I saw did not sound good at all, even if they looked okay. The ones that were in excellent condition were very expensive, even to American standards. One record store owner even told me that some of the more unscrupulous stores will buff or sand down records to make them look better.
I wonder how much correlation there is between music genres and the condition of second hand vinyl. It wouldn't surprise me if the original owners of punk records treated them carelessly while the original owners of jazz records cleaned them meticulously before playing them on carefully set-up turntables, finally replacing them carefully into their sleeves - being careful not to put fingers onto the playing surface.
Or am I stereotyping?
I wonder how much correlation there is between music genres and the condition of second hand vinyl. It wouldn't surprise me if the original owners of punk records treated them carelessly while the original owners of jazz records cleaned them meticulously before playing them on carefully set-up turntables, finally replacing them carefully into their sleeves - being careful not to put fingers onto the playing surface.
Or am I stereotyping?
Of course, that could mean that many punk records are in better condition. I have a prejudice against rubbing stuff into lenses with rock hard blooming, let alone into buttery vinyl. I sometimes find that used records, when examined under a microscope, have signs of microscopic scouring across the entire surface. Under the microscope you can see how every contact with the vinyl leaves a scar. I use PVA to clean my records once a decade and I avoid brushes, pads, solvents and anything liable to spread the mess around or push it into the surface, especially anything which moves what's on the wide flats into the narrow grooves. I understand people love their RCMs and other abrasive methods, but I'm just a luddite who thinks the microscopic world is full of little surprises.
I'm not sure how much correlation there is between types of music and the habits of owners - I have some unplayable jazz records, and I once bought a large and pristine collection of punk - I wasn't interested but I had a student who had asked me to look for rare punk. I will say, though, that finding an original copy of Surrealisic Pillow that isn't covered with marijuana tar and dried up bong water is not that easy - I think I finally gave up and bought the Sundazed reissue.
supatrack - your concern about cleaning lenses is perhaps more justified than you think - the antireflection coating (blooming) on lenses is not neccessarily rock hard - the single coating versions are usually magnesium floride which really isn't that hard, and if the glass under is relatively soft (and most optical glass is), it can scratch and abrade very easily - Leitz Summicrons of the 50s and 60s were particularly known for the fragility of their coating.
supatrack - your concern about cleaning lenses is perhaps more justified than you think - the antireflection coating (blooming) on lenses is not neccessarily rock hard - the single coating versions are usually magnesium floride which really isn't that hard, and if the glass under is relatively soft (and most optical glass is), it can scratch and abrade very easily - Leitz Summicrons of the 50s and 60s were particularly known for the fragility of their coating.
patient_ot
Super Member
I wonder how much correlation there is between music genres and the condition of second hand vinyl. It wouldn't surprise me if the original owners of punk records treated them carelessly while the original owners of jazz records cleaned them meticulously before playing them on carefully set-up turntables, finally replacing them carefully into their sleeves - being careful not to put fingers onto the playing surface.
Or am I stereotyping?
I happen to like both genres and treat all my records with care, though I am much more careful with my records now vs. when I was a teenager. I have also seen trashed examples of just about any genre in shops over the years. It comes down to the individual, not the type of music they are listening to. One thing you wouldn't expect (maybe) are trashed nice classical music records. But I have seen them. Supposedly some music students would play the same passages over and over while practicing their instrument and playing along. Sometimes you will see a record that seems to correlate with that. It looks fine but there is one band or section of the grooves that shows clear evidence of excessive wear and tear.
patient_ot
Super Member
There is a thing called "skimming" which exists mainly in rare collector sub-genres like obscure 60s soul, rocksteady, ska, etc. 7'' singles. A lot of these records are very expensive nowadays and dealers can be motivated by money to make them look better than they are to fetch better prices. Sketchy dealers that do this will operate out of record shows and take cash only rather than selling online to avoid things PayPal/eBay claims from buyers.
More recent lens coatings are deliberately hard, but even those old lenses are far more scratch resistant than vinyl. I have come to the view that the stylus really does melt a layer every time it plays. If you don't believe it, play one revolution on the flats of something like the HiFi News test record at ~2g downforce. If you look closely you can actually see the carved track left by the stylus on the flat. One play.
It's surprising how good old records sound.
My understanding is that the tremendous pressure of the stylus (not much force but miniscule area) on the groove melts the vinyl in the contact area, but that it immediately resolidifies in essentially the same shape it was before the contact.
I've noticed the visible groove left by a stylus playing a flat area - when I was setting antiskating using the blank record method (Edgar Winter Group's double album with one blank side was the go to in the 70s), it bothered me that there were tracks over the record from previous uses. But I don't think the behavior of the point of the stylus on flat vinyl is comparable to that of the sides of the stylus on the groove walls - I assume the area of the point is vastly less than that of the sides so the pressure is much higher, to say nothing of the point being sharp and probably not as well polished as the sides.
I've noticed the visible groove left by a stylus playing a flat area - when I was setting antiskating using the blank record method (Edgar Winter Group's double album with one blank side was the go to in the 70s), it bothered me that there were tracks over the record from previous uses. But I don't think the behavior of the point of the stylus on flat vinyl is comparable to that of the sides of the stylus on the groove walls - I assume the area of the point is vastly less than that of the sides so the pressure is much higher, to say nothing of the point being sharp and probably not as well polished as the sides.
Don´t mind reading all this interesting stuff about wear on lenses and so on. But hope some users will get their Supatrac arms soon and post some real world experiences and opinions.
Some people will be receiving their arms this coming week. It's not easy getting started in production, and I've accepted orders for several different lengths and configurations.
My plan was and is to get things started by producing them myself to test the market, and if things go well to start bringing in manufacturers.
Thanks for your patience.
damacman
Resident Psycho
Very best of luck as you do!
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