This twisted pair Canare speaker wire is excellent for bi-wiring ..

Akustic

Super Member
Not sure why I have had it in my head that bi-wiring with this twisted pair Canare 4s11 would defeat the field cancellation benefits of the twists unless the conductors were spliced..
But I did ..
So I always ran the 14ga conductors spliced into pairs for effectively 11ga .

Unspliced it, and bi-wired a pair of Snell type K's ..
Whoa... clarity, detail, definition .. big difference ..

And obviously with even a little thought, it's obvious that the pairs are still twisted with the exact same twist, and the characteristic detail and presence of the cable that made me appreciate it in the first place is intact.
The cable is simply high enough resolution to present the benefits of bi-wiring in clear detail...

Live, learn, and never stop experimenting ..
 
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I can't explain it but my Vandies sound better bi wired.
If I hadn't heard the difference myself, I'd be inclined to call it BS.
Tnx for the link.

The laws of physics have always supported the concept ... and people have been hearing the difference for decades ..
It's the explanation that's hard to fathom ..

And Richard Vandersteen is an experimental, experiential wizard with a good ear .. he figures it out by messing with it...
His explanation of the benefits of Bi-wiring v.s. bi-amping definitely furthered my education ..
That man has pushed the State of the Art for a long time ..
 
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It's not exactly surprising that someone who is listening to a mid-fi system through junk cables doesn't hear much difference when they bi-wire.
The system can't resolve the detail ..
Bi-wiring began in the high end with higher resolution systems ..
People modified the existing crossover, added a 2nd set of terminals, and bi-wired .. eventually manufactures started producing speakers with two sets of terminals ..

Instinctively, it just makes sense that a stronger low frequency signal is going to be modulating a weaker high frequency signal if they're running in the same
transmission cable.
Not to mention the field effect interactions that they're generating ..
 
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I've been espousing the benefits of using 16/4 in-wall OFC speaker wire for this purpose along with bi-amping for yrs. It's also very useful for running both L and R channels for rear lanai speakers etc.

Having an electrical contracting business you just naturally have lots of this stuff on hand in 1000' pull boxes, it was just a no brainier to use it.

I was using more expensive 12AWG flat speaker wire for yrs, but when I started purchasing more speakers on eBay I used the 16/4 for testing purposes and found it was equal to the task. This led to trying it to bi-amp my Infinitys and was rather pleased with the results.

I now use the in-wall for all of my speakers.
 
I've been espousing the benefits of using 16/4 in-wall OFC speaker wire for this purpose along with bi-amping for yrs. It's also very useful for running both L and R channels for rear lanai speakers etc.

Having an electrical contracting business you just naturally have lots of this stuff on hand in 1000' pull boxes, it was just a no brainier to use it.

I was using more expensive 12AWG flat speaker wire for yrs, but when I started purchasing more speakers on eBay I used the 16/4 for testing purposes and found it was equal to the task. This led to trying it to bi-amp my Infinitys and was rather pleased with the results.

I now use the in-wall for all of my speakers.

You and me both with the bi-amping ..

Vandersteen said it was primarily the bi-wiring that was creating the improvement .... from the lower midrange up, he was right ..
But I still like it with lots of power available .. especially that bottom end, kick drum slap ..
No replacement for that feeling that your pant legs are being blown back ..
 

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You're essentially creating two entirely separate circuits off the amp when you bi-wire ..
Each circuit has a different current flow, frequency and amplitude ....

They can't be modulating each other directly if they're separated, tho EMI has to be accounted for .. which is the reason for keeping the wires at a distance from each other ..
Or twisting them to moderate the effects of their radiated EMI ..
 
What about the single wire and/or board traces internal in the amp that take the final signal from the amp's circuitry to the single output terminal on the amp? Would you gain further improvement by soldering each of the 14g biwires directly to the final discrete component in the signal path within the amp?
 
What about the single wire and/or board traces internal in the amp that take the final signal from the amp's circuitry to the single output terminal on the amp? Would you gain further improvement by soldering each of the 14g biwires directly to the final discrete component in the signal path within the amp?

Potentially ... but maybe inaudible ..

You would be removing a connector from the signal path so simpler cleaner path .. which generally results in cleaner clearer sound ..
I've certainly read a lot of comments about the improvements gained from using certain connectors, and I've experienced clearly audible gains in clarity when I removed some unnecessary banana plugs from the speaker cables.

Makes sense ... the connector is part of the path... as are all of the the signal traces, and all of the components in the amp.
And amps with carefully chosen components and construction are certainly the finer sounding amps..

It's maybe an iffy thing tho ..
Active speakers are set up as you describe, but as far as I know, there is no clear consistent clarity advantage to active v.s. passive speakers ..

It's essentially an audibility phenomenon ..
The guy who doesn't hear it claims, justifiably that (for him at least) the differences don't exist ..Which makes the deaf guy the ultimate audio design expert ???
Always makes me think of Julian Hirsch claiming that all amplifiers with the same specs sound the same ..
 
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Potentially ... but maybe inaudible ..

You would be removing a connector from the signal path so simpler cleaner path .. which generally results in cleaner clearer sound ..
I've certainly read a lot of comments about the improvements gained from using certain connectors, and I've experienced clearly audible gains in clarity when I removed some unnecessary banana plugs from the speaker cables.

Makes sense ... the connector is part of the path... as are all of the the signal traces, and all of the components in the amp.
And amps with carefully chosen components and construction are certainly the finer sounding amps..

It's maybe an iffy thing tho ..
Active speakers are set up as you describe, but as far as I know, there is no clear consistent clarity advantage to active v.s. passive speakers ..

It's essentially an audibility phenomenon ..
..

If, as you state, connectors are a factor, then wouldn't adding second set of connectors at the speaker, as necessary for biwiring, create an additional potentially negative factor?

At some point, unless one is driving a single full-range driver per channel, the signal must be divided into driver-optimized frequency bands. That division has to be accomplished by either passive components (inductors, capacitors, and resistors) or active powered circuitry. That, obviously, takes place either inside a speaker via an internal passive crossover network, externally between pre- and power amps via an external active crossover, or in some exotic cases internally in a powered speaker (although I believe in most cases the crossover networks in many powered speakers are still passive, functioning after an internal power amp). Regardless of where those networks are located, those components will have many orders of magnitude more imprint on the sound than straight wire. Reference the oft-touted goal of constructing preamps that are simply "straight-wires with gain."

IF biwiring offers a significant sonic advantage, as described by the link in the second post in this thread, by allowing different frequencies to optimally transmit through each of the two biwire paths to the speaker, then would it not follow that active powered speakers would have a SIGNIFICANT advantage over passive, in that the signal path between the amplifier(s) internal in the speaker to the XO network and/or drivers themselves would be so much shorter than standard speaker wire runs? And yet... as you say.. that has not been demonstrated to be the case.

I have a pair of Magnepan 3.6R speakers biwired to a Van Alstine Transcendence III amp, mostly because I had some extra wire and connectors on hand and figured what the heck. I would LOVE to empirically (or as empirically as possible) test the audibility of differences attained by bi-wiring. On the surface, it seems like it should be an easy thing to do; combine the biwires on one side so that the resultant summed wire gauge on both channels is the same, play a mono signal, and compare what I hear. The catch is... room placement. There's virtually no way to put the speakers in exactly the same spot, and the influence on sound due to placement is so much greater than any possible influence due to changing the electrically-identical location of connection to the internal (external on these speakers) passive crossover as to render the test pretty much useless, unfortunately.

If one hears a difference, one hears a difference. If one does not, or has not yet read or heard a cogent explanation for the existence of improvement attained by biwiring, then one is branded as either owning an inferior system or simply not having ears good enough to hear the difference.

I truly DO wish I could both design a perfect test that removes all other variables and allows me to A/B/X biwiring vs same total gauge and composition wiring, and find an article that unequivocally, based on accepted physical and electrical engineering theory, explains why biwiring is better. I have searched for years... I do find it an interesting subject. Still searching.

EDIT/ADDITION: I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative; I just went back and re-read the entire aforementioned linked article, hoping to find something that further elucidates physical causes for improvements hear by some when biwiring . There's a few instances of misapplication of logic in the "layman's" description of what is happening within the truck-and-motorcycle traffic within the wire, ... for instance...

"Charges do not flow round the circuit one at a time; rather they behave like a nose-to-tail traffic jam on the motorway."

Followed, a few sentences later, by...

"Once the circuit is made all the traffic starts to flow out of the red terminal of the amplifier using the single speaker cable, into the red terminal of the loudspeaker where they get separated by the crossover, do the work in their respective loudspeakers and then join back up at the black terminal of the loudspeaker and use the single speaker cable again to reach their ultimate goal – the black amplifier terminal! "

and....

"Also there is no waiting for the first charge to make it all the way around – it’s a permanent traffic jam remember? As soon as the green light is given traffic is already flowing at the black amplifier terminal."

I mean, yes, I get that they're trying to explain very simply how current doesn't flow through a wire in a stream like water through a pipe, without delving into the physics of it too deeply (charges going from negative to positive, but the "holes" going from positive to negative, skin effect and speed of transmission as a function of frequency, etc), but still.... they seem to be basing a lot of their "proof" upon some substantially incorrect similes,but they at least admit that it's not exactly a correct analogy.

The part that gets me is the charts in figures 4, 5, 6, and 7. They tout the improvements in intermodulation distortion provided by biwiring shown in the charts for the separate woofer and tweeter runs, comparing it to the total intermodulation distortion shown in the single run. YET... they neglect the fact that the distortion present in the two biwire runs SUM anyway upon listening to the total output of the speaker... and looking at the chart closely, that sum of the separate biwire intermodulation distortions is pretty much identical to the plot of the intermodulation distortion of the single run.

Yes?
 
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I've been espousing the benefits of using 16/4 in-wall OFC speaker wire for this purpose along with bi-amping for yrs. It's also very useful for running both L and R channels for rear lanai speakers etc.

Having an electrical contracting business you just naturally have lots of this stuff on hand in 1000' pull boxes, it was just a no brainier to use it.

I was using more expensive 12AWG flat speaker wire for yrs, but when I started purchasing more speakers on eBay I used the 16/4 for testing purposes and found it was equal to the task. This led to trying it to bi-amp my Infinitys and was rather pleased with the results.

I now use the in-wall for all of my speakers.

I use 16/4 and 14/4 in-wall OFC in my theater system, and love it for that purpose, and use 14/4 in my living room system, spliced into two effective wires as the OP stated originally in the first post. It's great stuff.
 
If, as you state, connectors are a factor, then wouldn't adding second set of connectors at the speaker, as necessary for biwiring, create an additional potentially negative factor?

At some point, unless one is driving a single full-range driver per channel, the signal must be divided into driver-optimized frequency bands. That division has to be accomplished by either passive components (inductors, capacitors, and resistors) or active powered circuitry. That, obviously, takes place either inside a speaker via an internal passive crossover network, externally between pre- and power amps via an external active crossover, or in some exotic cases internally in a powered speaker (although I believe in most cases the crossover networks in many powered speakers are still passive, functioning after an internal power amp). Regardless of where those networks are located, those components will have many orders of magnitude more imprint on the sound than straight wire. Reference the oft-touted goal of constructing preamps that are simply "straight-wires with gain."

IF biwiring offers a significant sonic advantage, as described by the link in the second post in this thread, by allowing different frequencies to optimally transmit through each of the two biwire paths to the speaker, then would it not follow that active powered speakers would have a SIGNIFICANT advantage over passive, in that the signal path between the amplifier(s) internal in the speaker to the XO network and/or drivers themselves would be so much shorter than standard speaker wire runs? And yet... as you say.. that has not been demonstrated to be the case.

I have a pair of Magnepan 3.6R speakers biwired to a Van Alstine Transcendence III amp, mostly because I had some extra wire and connectors on hand and figured what the heck. I would LOVE to empirically (or as empirically as possible) test the audibility of differences attained by bi-wiring. On the surface, it seems like it should be an easy thing to do; combine the biwires on one side so that the resultant summed wire gauge on both channels is the same, play a mono signal, and compare what I hear. The catch is... room placement. There's virtually no way to put the speakers in exactly the same spot, and the influence on sound due to placement is so much greater than any possible influence due to changing the electrically-identical location of connection to the internal (external on these speakers) passive crossover as to render the test pretty much useless, unfortunately.

If one hears a difference, one hears a difference. If one does not, or has not yet read or heard a cogent explanation for the existence of improvement attained by biwiring, then one is branded as either owning an inferior system or simply not having ears good enough to hear the difference.

I truly DO wish I could both design a perfect test that removes all other variables and allows me to A/B/X biwiring vs same total gauge and composition wiring, and find an article that unequivocally, based on accepted physical and electrical engineering theory, explains why biwiring is better. I have searched for years... I do find it an interesting subject. Still searching.

EDIT/ADDITION: I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative; I just went back and re-read the entire aforementioned linked article, hoping to find something that further elucidates physical causes for improvements hear by some when biwiring . There's a few instances of misapplication of logic in the "layman's" description of what is happening within the truck-and-motorcycle traffic within the wire, ... for instance...

"Charges do not flow round the circuit one at a time; rather they behave like a nose-to-tail traffic jam on the motorway."

Followed, a few sentences later, by...

"Once the circuit is made all the traffic starts to flow out of the red terminal of the amplifier using the single speaker cable, into the red terminal of the loudspeaker where they get separated by the crossover, do the work in their respective loudspeakers and then join back up at the black terminal of the loudspeaker and use the single speaker cable again to reach their ultimate goal – the black amplifier terminal! "

and....

"Also there is no waiting for the first charge to make it all the way around – it’s a permanent traffic jam remember? As soon as the green light is given traffic is already flowing at the black amplifier terminal."

I mean, yes, I get that they're trying to explain very simply how current doesn't flow through a wire in a stream like water through a pipe, without delving into the physics of it too deeply (charges going from negative to positive, but the "holes" going from positive to negative, skin effect and speed of transmission as a function of frequency, etc), but still.... they seem to be basing a lot of their "proof" upon some substantially incorrect similes,but they at least admit that it's not exactly a correct analogy.

The part that gets me is the charts in figures 4, 5, 6, and 7. They tout the improvements in intermodulation distortion provided by biwiring shown in the charts for the separate woofer and tweeter runs, comparing it to the total intermodulation distortion shown in the single run. YET... they neglect the fact that the distortion present in the two biwire runs SUM anyway upon listening to the total output of the speaker... and looking at the chart closely, that sum of the separate biwire intermodulation distortions is pretty much identical to the plot of the intermodulation distortion of the single run.

Yes?

Try it ..
Just wire each side different ..I do it all of the time to compare things, but I don't mess with a mono source. Too much headache.. Most recordings have plenty of material playing in both channels simultaneously ... The differences are obvious just moving back and forth across the speakers ..
For me whenever a change is worthwhile, the difference is immediately obvious.. Occasionally, I'll leave it wired that way though for a couple hours, through differing material ..

If the speaker already has two sets of terminals, it's an easy experiment ...
Back in the 80's I had to pull the driver and tap the crossover which is a much more complicated proposition ..

The Canare works well because it's an inexpensive, but very accurate and revealing cable .. It's $1.20/ft un-terminated and has 4 identical twisted conductors in the sleeve .
$25 for a ten foot pair.....Screw it directly to the terminals and listen ..
The downside to the Canare is that it has to be run in before it will sound as clear and forthright as it can be... Canare's wire coating has a dielectric stability that's close to Teflon's, but like Teflon, It needs to be exposed to a charged state for a long time before it stabilizes.
That wire will keep changing it's sonics for about the first 150 hours..

If bi-wiring is going to do what it can, the difference will be immediately apparent to you .. You have very revealing gear so it won't be masking the difference.

I just spent a couple of hours reading links about bi-wiring on the internet .. A mish mash of misinformation, disinformation, half-assed explanations, and misapplied physics principles .. It's no wonder people are so confused ..

A simple circuit diagram makes it clear that two separate circuits are created where once there was one when a speaker is bi-wired ..
Apply the principles of circuit analysis to those circuits, and the clear conclusion is that the flow of energy through those circuits has to be different, therefore it may sound different than it did with only one circuit...

All analogies like the traffic explanation are doomed to potential distortion and confusion ...
There really is no replacement for an understanding of charge states and energy flows ..
If one portion of the original signal now can't modulate the other portion of the signal, one of the plausible explanations for changed sonics, is a modulation reduction ..
 
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It's not exactly surprising that someone who is listening to a mid-fi system through junk cables doesn't hear much difference when they bi-wire.
The system can't resolve the detail ..Bi-wiring began in the high end with higher resolution systems

I think this part says a lot in general about our "hobby" and the way even the smallest of things may be perceived.
 
I've been espousing the benefits of using 16/4 in-wall OFC speaker wire for this purpose along with bi-amping for yrs. It's also very useful for running both L and R channels for rear lanai speakers etc.

Having an electrical contracting business you just naturally have lots of this stuff on hand in 1000' pull boxes, it was just a no brainier to use it.

I was using more expensive 12AWG flat speaker wire for yrs, but when I started purchasing more speakers on eBay I used the 16/4 for testing purposes and found it was equal to the task. This led to trying it to bi-amp my Infinitys and was rather pleased with the results.

I now use the in-wall for all of my speakers.

Twisted pairs ... It's the right geometry for clarity and detail ..
But construction qualities, both the wire's, and the coating's, count ..

I've been using the Canare because it's engineered for studios and professional venues where how it sounds counts ..
They are paying attention to how it sounds and perfecting it as they go ..

It's more or less cabling everything in the house and now the truck ..it's a pure bargain.
 
Twisted pairs ... It's the right geometry for clarity and detail ..
But construction qualities, both the wire's, and the coating's, count ..

I've been using the Canare because it's engineered for studios and professional venues where how it sounds counts ..
They are paying attention to how it sounds and perfecting it as they go ..

It's more or less cabling everything in the house and now the truck ..it's a pure bargain.

The wire we use goes into 80,000 sq' homes where cost is no object and SQ really counts:D

While working on one home Jimmy Buffett would stop by to use the tennis courts
 
I think this part says a lot in general about our "hobby" and the way even the smallest of things may be perceived.

Maybe too easy to forget that not everybody is hearing it ..

The change is completely obvious to me, but I'm listening to a pair of Snell's that are classics, through a very musical, and detailed MOSFET amp, and the entire thing is picked over, tweaked, and tweaked again every time some new experiment occurs to me .. it's already about the detail for me ..
 
Try it ..
Just wire each side different ..I do it all of the time to compare things, but I don't mess with a mono source. Too much headache.. Most recordings have plenty of material playing in both channels simultaneously ... The differences are obvious just moving back and forth across the speakers .. ..
There certainly WOULD be huge and obvious differences; if you're not "mess(ing) with a mono source," you're hearing huge differences no matter what due to two different stereo signals. Kind of like holding an apple in one hand, an orange in the other, then polishing the apple and noting that it's now shinier than the orange. It's not a question of "..plenty of material," it's a question of comparing only one single variable... the change in your wiring from single to bi.

I've compared the aforementioned Maggie/AVA system with standard single wire runs and bi-wire runs, and of course heard the expected "Hey, I like this better!" after installing the biwires. After a few weeks, just for fun, I went back to a single run (with the resultant smaller total gauge... didn't bother to piggy back them), just to see if I noticed a degredation. Althought I wanted to, as sort of a reverse confirmation of what I heard previously, I did not, leading me to have a bit more faith in my math/science/logic side than my subjective "I want to hear a difference since I spent/did/adjusted this...." side.

Since I already had the biwire runs constructed, I reinstalled them and continue to use them, ...just in case... ;) This was all over a year ago. System sounds great, but always has. Really, the only way to TRULY know if there is more going on here, at least for me personally, is to be able to remove every variable OTHER than the wire, but I can't think of a way to co-locate two Maggies playing the same mono source.

IF there is a difference/improvement yielded by biwiring, it is infinitely smaller than any other change I've made in the system; changes in cartridges, styli, phono pres, DACs, changing the toe-in or spacing of the speakers by even an inch, sitting three inches closer to the speakers... ALL of those things are readily discernible.

Again, I'm not stipulating that there is nothing to be gained by biwiring. Just do not understand the hows and whys, nor have I heard undisputable evidence in favor of it in my system. My wife has excellent ears, as does one of my sons. Perchance, next time he's in town, I'll blindfold them, sit them down in front of the Maggies, play the same selection repeatedly while switching out the wires between piggybacked and then biwired pairs, multiple times but not always switching, and see what they hear over maybe ten samples. If they both choose one configuration over the other repeatedly the majority of the time, then that would seem to confirm the assertion that biwiring produces different results than a single run of the same total gauge.

The difficulty will be in convincing my wife to participate. She HATES, and I mean HAAAATTTTESSSS to play what she calls, "This... or..... that?" When she seems me put a new mouthpiece in my trumpet, or a friend lends me a different trumpet model to compare against the three or four I play regularly, she runs from the house screaming, knowing I'm going to ask her to listen for differences... lololololol.
 
There certainly WOULD be huge and obvious differences; if you're not "mess(ing) with a mono source," you're hearing huge differences no matter what due to two different stereo signals. Kind of like holding an apple in one hand, an orange in the other, then polishing the apple and noting that it's now shinier than the orange. It's not a question of "..plenty of material," it's a question of comparing only one single variable... the change in your wiring from single to bi.

I've compared the aforementioned Maggie/AVA system with standard single wire runs and bi-wire runs, and of course heard the expected "Hey, I like this better!" after installing the biwires. After a few weeks, just for fun, I went back to a single run (with the resultant smaller total gauge... didn't bother to piggy back them), just to see if I noticed a degredation. Althought I wanted to, as sort of a reverse confirmation of what I heard previously, I did not, leading me to have a bit more faith in my math/science/logic side than my subjective "I want to hear a difference since I spent/did/adjusted this...." side.

Since I already had the biwire runs constructed, I reinstalled them and continue to use them, ...just in case... ;) This was all over a year ago. System sounds great, but always has. Really, the only way to TRULY know if there is more going on here, at least for me personally, is to be able to remove every variable OTHER than the wire, but I can't think of a way to co-locate two Maggies playing the same mono source.

IF there is a difference/improvement yielded by biwiring, it is infinitely smaller than any other change I've made in the system; changes in cartridges, styli, phono pres, DACs, changing the toe-in or spacing of the speakers by even an inch, sitting three inches closer to the speakers... ALL of those things are readily discernible.

Again, I'm not stipulating that there is nothing to be gained by biwiring. Just do not understand the hows and whys, nor have I heard undisputable evidence in favor of it in my system. My wife has excellent ears, as does one of my sons. Perchance, next time he's in town, I'll blindfold them, sit them down in front of the Maggies, play the same selection repeatedly while switching out the wires between piggybacked and then biwired pairs, multiple times but not always switching, and see what they hear over maybe ten samples. If they both choose one configuration over the other repeatedly the majority of the time, then that would seem to confirm the assertion that biwiring produces different results than a single run of the same total gauge.

The difficulty will be in convincing my wife to participate. She HATES, and I mean HAAAATTTTESSSS to play what she calls, "This... or..... that?" When she seems me put a new mouthpiece in my trumpet, or a friend lends me a different trumpet model to compare against the three or four I play regularly, she runs from the house screaming, knowing I'm going to ask her to listen for differences... lololololol.

Good that you've tried it ... and you already have the wire ..

Try single wire on one side and bi-wire the other side for while ...
The comparison is more instantaneous that way and after listening for a while you know what differences that you're perceiving .. kind of teaching your ear what to listen for.
Then swap sides and see if those differences move ...

Improvements or differences that require complete wiring changes and down time in the middle are harder to perceive ..
What cable and connectors are you using ??
 
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