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Thorens TD-165 Stylus Quivers & Shivers

A

avantbored

Active Member
Hi all,

I'm writing about an incredibly frustrating and pesky issue. As the subject indicates, the stylus on my TD-165 quivers (shivers, shakes -- whichever verb that helps you visualize it. It basically looks it's freezing in the cold!) on playback. At first, I thought it resulted from poor cleaning and GrooveWasher fluid & gunk sinking deeper into the grooves, but having just played a record I did not clean recently, and witnessed the stylus shivering, I'm now convinced this is some kind of mechanical and/or power issue. The issue is relatively new (perhaps since the end of November).

Here are the specs of my set-up:

Thorens TD-165
ATVM95SH
Stock components, mostly, except for:

  • An auto shut-off switch (was installed way back whenever the first owner bought it; I have since disabled it)
  • New suspension springs (from VinylNirvana)
  • New OEM belt (from VinylNirvana)
  • New rubber feet (from VinylNirvana)
My stereo components:

  • Nakamichi PA-7AII Stasis amplifier
  • Nakamichi CA-7A preamp
  • KEF LS50s

What I've done to try and isolate the issue:

  • Realigned cartridge (with the plastic gauge purchased from eBay)
  • Experimented with anti-skate
  • heavier/lighter tracking force
  • Re-tuned suspension (tighter / looser; faceplate + platter gap anywhere from 6mm-8mm)
  • Switched out platter mats (stock rubber; stock rubber + cork; cork alone; cork + acrylic; acrylic alone)
  • Unplugged all components, cleaned the surfaces, vacuumed behind the bookcase on which the components sit
  • Re-leveled wall shelf
  • Lowered picard load on the pre-amp.

This might be helpful for additional context: Other issues I want to fix with my turntable & speed tests

  • The RCA terminals are starting to go. I've hit them with Deoxit, but the left channel goes in and out intermittently. I think it's getting worse. I'd like to replace the wiring inside eventually.
  • Static build-up. I live in LA. Winters are drier than summer, but we have a pretty dry climate over all. In the summer, I didn't have any issues with static pops when I lifted LPs from the platter, or being shocked when I touch the face plate. But now I do. Just a weather thing?
  • (Are these two issues -- RCA terminals and static build-up -- somehow related)?
  • Using the RPM app on my phone, the platter spins pretty accurately: +/- 0.0017% was the last reading. It's a green "33.3" for the whole run of the test.
Through my rigorous, but unorganized, research, I've seen similar problems explained either by compliance or LP manufacturing issues (some records are just cut too "hot"). In my case, I don't think these are the issues. For one, I know ATVM95 is a common cartridge for TD-160 and -165 owners, and I haven't read any reports of these problems. Secondly, I didn't have this shivering/quivering issue before, as indicated above.

Any insight from you guys? The Thorens Facebook group was thoroughly un-insightful and just told me to clean my records better.

Thanks in advance--

Ryan
 
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The effective mass of the tonearm is 16.5 grams. Compliance mismatch ? What's the compliance of the stylus in the ATVM95 ?
 
johnjhazel said:
The effective mass of the tonearm is 16.5 grams. Compliance mismatch ? What's the compliance of the stylus in the ATVM95 ?
Click to expand...

Here's the stats from LP Gear's product page:

- Static compliance: 20 × 10-6 cm/dyne
- Dynamic compliance: 7 × 10-6 cm/dyne (100Hz)

I just calculated the resonant frequency with this calculator: http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/RF.html . The results are in the screenshot.

5j44g2.png
 
johnjhazel said:
This is from the Audio Technica site for the Shibata stylus:
Static Compliance 20 x 10 – 6 cm / dyne
Dynamic Compliance 10 x 10 – 6 cm / dyne (100 Hz)
https://www.audio-technica.com/en-u...udio-technica-cartridge-best-suits-turntable/
This states to multiply the 100Hz figure by 1.5 or 2.0. That doesn't help much.

It seems like it should be okay unless a heavier headshell or heavy cartridge mounting hardware is used.
Click to expand...


Thanks for that extra resource. Using the VinylEngine chart, I'm still within the green (the lowest at 8Hz).

I'm using the stock TP60 headshell. The mounting screws have washers, and I suppose if that's adding some extra weight, I could remove those and see if that makes a difference. Do you think it could?
 
Does the platter itself vibrate at all even with the arm not on it? Should be able to lightly touch the arm pivot and feel it. Could be there is something funny going on with the drive mechanism. Not a whole lot to it, motor, belt, platter, but if the bearing got damaged from running dry, or if the spindle is slightly bent it would cause some strange issues. Bad flooring is also an issue with suspended tables. If you have serious feedback problems caused by the speakers sitting way too close, thats also a possibility.

on the subject of headshells, is it the proper one for the arm? Off the top of my head there are 2 physically interchangeable Thorens shells that aren't actually compatible. I forget the specific model numbers though.
 
avantbored said:
Thanks for that extra resource. Using the VinylEngine chart, I'm still within the green (the lowest at 8Hz).

I'm using the stock TP60 headshell. The mounting screws have washers, and I suppose if that's adding some extra weight, I could remove those and see if that makes a difference. Do you think it could?
Click to expand...

It's worth a try.
 
gadget73 said:
Does the platter itself vibrate at all even with the arm not on it? Should be able to lightly touch the arm pivot and feel it. Could be there is something funny going on with the drive mechanism. Not a whole lot to it, motor, belt, platter, but if the bearing got damaged from running dry, or if the spindle is slightly bent it would cause some strange issues. Bad flooring is also an issue with suspended tables. If you have serious feedback problems caused by the speakers sitting way too close, thats also a possibility.

on the subject of headshells, is it the proper one for the arm? Off the top of my head there are 2 physically interchangeable Thorens shells that aren't actually compatible. I forget the specific model numbers though.
Click to expand...

I don't feel any vibrations at the pivot, though the lift mechanism sometimes growls when up. Nothing noticeable or audible when it's depressed.

I re-oiled the motor lightly a couple of days ago; I can try a drop or two on the bearing.

The table is on a wall shelf, which I installed recently because of my bouncy floors. It's mounted into load-bearing studs in my apartment.

No real serious feedback problems.

The headshell is stock (TP60).
 
gadget73 said:
Does the platter itself vibrate at all even with the arm not on it?
Click to expand...

Was wondering the same. Possibly the platter isn't sitting square on the spindle? That could definitely cause some oscillation. Most tables just use gravity to seat the platter. Lift it off about a half inch and just drop it to see if there's any difference. Might need to remove the belt first, but usually not a problem if you're careful.
 
Do you have another headshell with a cartridge with a less compliant needle in it ? That would be one way to figure it out.
 
sKiZo said:
Was wondering the same. Possibly the platter isn't sitting square on the spindle? That could definitely cause some oscillation. Most tables just use gravity to seat the platter. Lift it off about a half inch and just drop it to see if there's any difference. Might need to remove the belt first, but usually not a problem if you're careful.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't know how to lift the platter itself 1/2" on this unit, as the platter sits on a sub-platter, around which the belt turns. Just taking a look at it, though, did show me how oily the underside of the sub-platter was!

johnjhazel said:
Do you have another headshell with a cartridge with a less compliant needle in it ? That would be one way to figure it out.
Click to expand...

I don't, unfortunately. When I installed the cart, everything was great! The problem has presented recently.
 
avantbored said:
Wouldn't know how to lift the platter itself 1/2" on this unit, as the platter sits on a sub-platter, around which the belt turns. Just taking a look at it, though, did show me how oily the underside of the sub-platter was!



I don't, unfortunately. When I installed the cart, everything was great! The problem has presented recently.
Click to expand...

Maybe the suspension in the stylus is failing if it is a recent thing and nothing else has changed. If it was a compliance mismatch, it would have been present since day 1. So much for that theory.
 
johnjhazel said:
Maybe the suspension in the stylus is failing if it is a recent thing and nothing else has changed. If it was a compliance mismatch, it would have been present since day 1. So much for that theory.
Click to expand...
Oh, that's awesome :banana:.

What are some common causes for suspension failure, besides wear and tear? I don't think I've put in the 800 hours to exhaust it!
 
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