Thorens TD125 MKII and Grado Red - Could this be a good combination?

Mr. Lin

Mr. Lin

Lunatic Member
I've been on Ak for a while now, and there seems to be a lot of talk and controversy about Grado cartridges. I'm very intrigued. At this point I think I'd like to see for myself whether it's hype or something I'll genuinely enjoy.

I have a Pro-Ject RM-5 table and a Thorens TD125 MKII, but the Pro-Ject is currently happily married to a Dynavector, so that's not going to change. On the Thorens I've had a Shure M75-6 (bad), Shure M97XE (not bad at all), and as of last night a Audio Technica Series VII (surprisingly good). I'd really like to play around with this, so I'll probably get a Grado Red for the Thorens.

First, could anyone tell me if this is likely to be a very problematic combination? The tonearm is a medium to high mass TP16. I'm not concerned with it being a perfect match.

Second, all this talk about the Grado hum is cause for concern. If there is a hum, I've read in some posts here that twisting the headshell leads around each other fixes it. Is this true? Has anyone ever tried a Grado with this model Thorens before?

Third, due to minor budget constraints (tube rolling :tears:) I really don't want to spend more than about $100, so the Silver and Gold are out. The Red seems to get good reviews, has anyone here used one?

Ok any recommendations or information will be greatly appreciated as always.
 
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Can't say much about the reds, but Grado in general has served me very well for the last 10 years or so. Can't go wrong with that and your turntable. I think you'll be very happy.

Er...what hum? Mine hardly has any sound. Just make sure your ground connections inside the turntable any your Preamp/amp/Receiver are in good shape and nice and tight.
 
I think the Red sounds pretty darned good on my setup. Like anything audio,
a lot of personal preference goes into it. Hum issues seem to mostly come
from direct drive tables, FWIW. Another point on the Red(or any of the others
from Black up), should the budget allow, you can get a Silver or Gold stylus
later as an upgrade. To my ears, the Red outperforms anything near it's price point, and I did listen to a few others before settling on it.
 
HI,
What arm is on the TD-124? In general, most anything will sound good on a TD-124. It's a terrific vintage table. But the arm matters.

Sparky
 
Sparky - per the original post, the arm is the original Thorens TP-16.

The Grado Red and the Thorens would be a fine combo. The "Grado Hum" issue is usually associated with direct drive turntables, so there should be no problems with your belt drive Thorens.
 
Karma16 said:
HI,
What arm is on the TD-124? In general, most anything will sound good on a TD-124. It's a terrific vintage table. But the arm matters.

Sparky
Click to expand...
The OP is referring to a TD-125 not a 124. (Whole different ball-game) :yes:
What "version" (i.e. MKI, MKII etc) of the TD-125 do you have? IIRC different versions of the TP16 arm are not identical and have different effective mass, which can affect your decision with repsect to "matching" for resonance .
Regards
WopOnTour

Edit> Oops, I see now the OP stated TD125 MKII which would have been equipped with the inaugural (Type 1) version of the TP-16 arm which was actually pretty high mass at 16.5g (unlike later versions)
The Grado's are really not a very good match at all with their high compliance specs. You should be looking at lower compliance carts for this arm (4-8grams at 10-12 compliance) Since you have (and by the sounds of it "like") your Dynavector 10x5 (6.6g@12um/nm) I would certainly give it whirl on the Thorens- Wop
 
Wop,
I see what you're saying, but taking the Dynavector off the Pro-Ject is basically out of the question at this point. I didn't think they'd be a good match, but what are the possible side-effects of using a Grado with this arm? Like I said, I'm not particularly concerned about matching, unless it's likely to be disastrous for some reason.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I was planning on picking up the cartridge tomorrow, so it would help to know.
 
The Grado hum issues have nothing to do with DD vs belt drive. It has everything to do with shielding between the motor and the cartridge. The TD125-MKIIs shouldn't have an issue (at least according to the general concensus over at the Vinyl Asylum), but I've never tried a Grado on one myself.

As for arm matching, that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax. Over at the Cartridge Database, I'm not seeing any compliance info for the Red. So it's hard to tell exactly how well it's going to match. The TP16 is on the heavy side, although it's not a bad arm if you get a cart that it likes.
 
Mr. Lin said:
My question is, what might happen if they're a really bad match?
Click to expand...

Sound distortion caused by resonance.

The TP-16 is a heavy arm which just begs to be mated with a MC cartridge. With a MC capable phono amp, try the DL-103 - $150. The 103 really sings with a heavy arm. Most people try to use it with an arm that is medium mass and never hear what the cartridge is capable of. There's a good possibility that you'll like it better than your RM5/dynavector combo.
 
So do you think it's a bad idea to try the Grado with the Thorens? I've heard so many on AK say their Thorens sounded great with a Grado, but I guess it was a different mass arm. I was under the impression that the TP16 is a medium to heavy mass tonearm.

I'm trying to avoid LOMC cartridges now because I just ordered a very expensive phono preamp that's made to work only with MM and HOMC carts.
 
Grado Hum

I have a TD-160 Super with a Rega RB-300 arm, and a Grado Platinum. It hums. :( But not enough to really make a difference. It all has to do with how or if your table motor is shielded. I haven't gotten around to ordering some MuMetal to try to eliminate the hum, so there may be hope. I still do love the grado sound, so I'm overall pleased with my cart. BTW, twisting the leads did help a little bit. I have a Grado Red on an old Pioneer DD, and I love the way it sounds. You can't go wrong with Grado IMHO. I would suggest going for a Gold if funds allow.
-Derek:music:
 
The RB-300, what's the mass of that arm? I thought those were meant for low-compliance cartridges, but if yours works (albeit with hum), perhaps there's hope. I already have a little hum from using unshielded Kimber Silver Streaks with my Pro-Ject, but the music drowns it out and it's well worth for the vast improvements in sound quality IMO.

Anyway, still hoping to get any educated advice about whether this is likely to be a very bad choice.

Maybe I'll buy the silver, and if it doesn't work on the Thorens eventually I'll try it on the Pro-Ject :thmbsp: I just don't want to touch the Pro-Ject/Dynavector setup because it sounds so incredible, and I haven't even had it that long. Plus I'm afraid of breaking the headshell leads on the Pro-Ject because they go right into the tonearm. The point of all this is that I've never put anything better than a Shure M97XE on the Thorens, and I'd like to play around a little plus I'm dying to hear a Grado.
 
Calculations

From the analogdept.com website is the formula for calculating whether a cartridge will work with a certain arm given effective mass, compliance, and cart mass.

rf = 159 / sqrt ((eff. mass + cart weight + fastener weight) * (compliance))

rf: resonant frequency in hz
eff. mass: rated by tonearm manufacturer
cart weight: rated by cartridge manufacturer, but if accurate scales exist, an actual weight value could be used
fastener weight: screws, nuts, spacers, washers, shims. They have weight and add to the mass over the stylus
compliance: rated by cartridge manufacturer

You will want to keep the rf in the range of 8-12 Hz. I'm not sure which version of the TP-16 arm you have is so, I'll assume Mk 1 which has a 16.5g effective mass. Your Grado Red has a compliance of 20(I don't know the units) and it weighs 5.5g. Lets assume your screws and nuts, and washers weigh .5g. so.........

rf = 159 / sqrt ((16.5 + 5.5 + .5) * (20))
rf= 159/ sqrt (450)
rf= 159/ 21.21320
rf= 7.49533 Hz

This is outside of the recommended range, and what that means is your tonearm will be excited by anything 7.5 Hz. Since footfall and record warps are about or below 6-7Hz. IMO, you're pushing it. And besides, you can pick up a Rega RB-250 for less than $300, and have a modern tonearm that will be a much better match then your TP-16. The ultimate in my mind would be a Thorens with a SME 3009 and a High compliance cart like a Grado. So, you need to either get a lighter arm, or pick a cartridge with less compliance to bring your rf between that 8-12 Hz range. This is all theory BTW, but I'm sure there is alot of truth to it. The link to the site is:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/cartridge___arm_matching.htm
-Derek:music:
 
rf = 159 / sqrt ((10 + 6.5 + .5) * (20))


My RB-300 has an effective mass of 10, compliance is 20, and fastener is .5
The rega isn't the perfect match for the grado cart, but, its what I can afford, and it sounds good to my ears!
works out to:

rf=8.7Hz
-Derek:music:
 
Thanks for taking time to calculate all that Derek, I appreciate it. It is the MKI version, unfortunately. Makes things more difficult. I know the Shure M97XE is a reputable cart and a great tracker, sounded just fine on the Thorens, but I recall someone originally saying it would be a bad match. On the other hand, this is a totally different cartridge.

Right now I'm still undecided, I might take a chance and see what happens. I'm off tomorrow so I need to decide soon.
 
The TP16 Mk1 is actually a decent vintage arm, it just "likes" lower compliace cartridges due to it's higher eff. mass (16.5g)
Plug in the "values" for your Dynavector 10x5 (6.6g and 12 um/Nm) into the formula and you'll see what I mean.

The general "acceptable" range is 8-12 but the widely accepted "sweet spot" is 10Hz +/- 1Hz (i.e 9-11Hz)
This online resonace "calculator" http://www.cartridgedb.com/tools.asp is an easy way to check different carts.
Regards
WopOnTour
 
It comes to 9.45Hz, closer to the sweet spot.

Another issue with putting the Dynavector on the Thorens is that I have special screws for the Thorens headshell, but I've read you have to use the screws supplied with the Dynavector to mount it - those won't work with the Thorens.
 
Another thing I'm seeing, this is what it says for the Grado Red output: Output at 1KHz 5CM/sec. 5mV

Is that supposed to be 5 or .5? Wouldn't .5 be very low?
 
Hmm, costs much more than I wanted to spend, but the Benz Micro MC20E2 comes out to 10.97Hz, which is just about perfect. But $200 is really more than I wanted to spend.
 
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