To heck with originality.

B

bd1886

Super Member
Been hauling gear to a best buds house to run through a listening gauntlet of A/Bing everything instantly (with all combos) from speaks,amps,receivers to TTs'.

One GIANT fact has been thrust into our face. Modern drivers "finely tuned" into early speaks....can produce incredible!
For less than three hundred dollars, my bud has a pair of Chapman SCJ 1's that go a long way towards presenting in the leagues of Dynaudio,top KEFs' and the like. They still have enough of that early sound to "play safe", but we are hearing the non cranium piercing detail of better drivers. My friend was fortunate to have had the actual manufacturer be involved with the "re-spec" and he obviously knows how to re-invent his past product!

How many of you guys say to heck with "original" when you "know" how to truly improve by only adding better/modern drivers?
 
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New driver technology

I agree that driver technology has improved tremendiously. Many people on the forum like the classic sound of vintage speakers but, as you have noted, it can be improved by replacing the drivers and crossovers with newer stuff.

As long as you do your homework, you can replace your drivers and modify your crossovers to increase the sound quality. You can even find replacement drivers that are sized the same as your old ones, so you don't have to butcher up your vintage cabinets. It looks original, but with better drivers.

I have a set of Cizek Model 3's and they have that classic 1970's New England sound. But, they are most certainly dated in their sound. The original Peerless tweeter is rather limited in performance compared to newer tweeters. Replacing the Peerless with a more up to date tweeter would improve the soundstage tremendously. Some might consider this sacrilage, but as long as you didn't butch up the cabinet, it would be a nice improvement.
 
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It's really not hard at all to improve on those old speakers with more modern drivers. But for the most part resale value plummets when you do this. I don't swap drivers anymore unless it's a factory approved "upgrade" such as the 8 more modern tweeters in my polks.
 
lets say you pick up some no name off brand speakers but with nice boxes.
how do you determine what drivers will work? :scratch2:
 
OhioEric said:
lets say you pick up some no name off brand speakers but with nice boxes.
how do you determine what drivers will work? :scratch2:
Click to expand...

Start by asking what is wrong with what you have and is there a simple fix rather than replacing everything. Tweeking a tweeter and crossover may be all you need.

The best answer is to pick a kit or design that fits the boxes you have rather than trying to pick random drivers and trying to work up a custom crossover. For example, let's say you boxes just happen to be about 0.4 ft^3 and roughly 8" x 14" x 10" deep which just happens to match the Zaph Audio ZA5.2 found here http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-za5.2-tm-2-way-pair/ It will take a little judgement to decide when a kit is "close enough" to fit your cabinets. The time (and $) spent looking for a good kit will be far less than the time (and $) spent trying to learn driver selection and crossover design. Trust me!

If you're going to replace everything, start with measuring the interior volume of the cabinet. Then measure the port(s) to determine the current box tuning. That gets you started with picking a replacement woofer...also consider existing woofer (and mid/tweet) cut-out size if you aren't replacing the baffle.
 
Let me give an example. I've just got 2 pairs of JMlab speakers that have a good upgrade potential, because I got them relatively cheap and they already have non-original tweeters and very good original woofers.

Background here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=585737

So that's an easier project, because I only want to find better tweeters. The goal would be to have better imaging and better quality highs, not more or less of them. The tweeters that are there now are nothing special, but OK, probably already an improvement over the originals. That's judging by specs, some reports I read on the original tweeters and the sound the speakers are making now. I'm going to try to find something that is 8 ohm, soft dome with 90 dB efficiency and a power rating that suits a 50W speaker, that should work fine with the original x-over. Tweeters need to fit in the opening and the mounting holes.
I will start with trying some soft domes I have at home that do not have exactly the right dimensions, but have the right specs) to confirm that a soft dome would actually be an improvement.
 
With knowledgeable forums like this, driver swapping has become less a pig in a poke. Like said if you do your homework you can make a more suitable product.

I not long ago rebuilt a set of Interface CII's with new, improved, Dayton woofers, HiFi ribbon tweeters- but did keep their signature VMR mids. They came out better than stock! The fact I was missing the twtr && woofers lead me down the road of after market improvements-BUT I did have to do a lot of research to get the right drivers to build around their incredible VMR mid. With a little xover tweaking and port tuning I made a great set of speakers!

I tend to find more "donor" cabinets than whole complete types these days. Knowing that will lead to re-invention and good potential for success. However if it is a solid choice of keeping an AR3a whole, I will keep the AR3a whole....

Good luck
DC
 
Add to this the MANY models of speakers out there with mismatched drivers starting out. Might be bad science, bad choices and the most common Bean Counters. I don't believe there are many (as a percentage) of speakers out there that are true to the designers goals. AR3 speakers are a perfect example of a speaker that likely was only limited by the capital they had to work with. If funding was unlimited, at startup, who knows what they could have created. This is also an example of a speaker that people prefer NOT to change out drivers, with the exception of correct replacements, like donors OR factory "Service" drivers.

That said, HPM-100, JBL L100, Mach One and many other "popular" speakers have been updated, upgraded and to some degree highly modified from stock to produce a superior speaker. And of course, there are people who would argue no improvement.

Each of us has our own hearing and of course "tastes". Then factor in "purest" mentality (not meant in the negative sense) and you'll have people argue "leave well enough along!"

And that doesn't even begin to touch on Repurpose, like E-wave designs.
 
The biggest thing we have noted is positioning/placement and genre of music are HUGE.....to the point of it meaning leaving well enough alone "can" rule. We have two sets of speaks where we have stock and "guru certified replacements". Throw in something like Santana and stock rules. Put in something with less complex detail force/more "breath with force" and the modern drivers have a more creamy separation and the detail springs out of that.
At first our common consensus was hell....modernize all drivers. It's not that easy of a decision we have found and just leaving well enough alone with a pair of Chapman SCJ-1s' and KLH Model Fives.


Still the fact stands (from people just falling into this to the people who have followed a path to a narrower perception "what's right".....if it sounds good to you? It is.
Last of yesterday we stopped by Magnolia HiFi/Seattle. Listened to some $24,000.00 B&Ws'. After coming back it was still no problem to enjoy all our work and re-entering the "real world"! Going to re-do classics with great forethought I'll tell ya. (Things aren't so cut and dried are they?)
 
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I reworked some empty Advent cabinets a while back, as I couldn't find any takers for some good cabs. I added some aluminum Dayton woofers and mids, and a "silkie" dome tweeter. More information is in the thread below :

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=405176

Lee.

AdventRebuild13.jpg
 
OK, without hijacking this thread I have an dilemma along these lines.

I have Technics SB-6000A 12 inch woofers with the surrounds completely rotted away. Very tough to find good originals to replace them. When talking to Parts Express about the foam kit, they noted that they wouldn't attempt to do the refoam because they cant get the original part. So, I assume anyone attempting a refoam (including me) will use a generic 12 inch kit.

All that said, I am concerned that a refoam will change the performance of this driver to the point where I may be best suited to go the replacement route. This is a Linear Phase 2 way speaker with a tuned port and the woofer is on the hook for the frequency range up to 1500hz. Opinions?
 
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I "was" one of those "original" is "right" sort of guys once.
I was noobie. Once I started to get enlightened on how stuff works, it opened up some doors. Once I opened the doors, I got my eyes opened.

For instance. I scored a set of old Speakerlabs. Big, heavy, nice, great drivers. Sounded lousy. I was toying with the notion that they needed larger cabs.

A nice set of cabs became available for free. Drivers would fit with very little effort.

Nothing to lose. SO I took a shot and they turned out to be one of the best set I own. Pretty much all the drivers and cross-over into a new box and MAGIC.
(OK, I did have to sub out the mid since it would have a pain to make the one fit and I had another driver that is a good mid).

CIMG1330.JPG


FWIW, I have heard some incredible speakers built from good parts or various other speakers. "Frankenspeakers".
 
Millersound

holyman772 said:
OK, without hijacking this thread I have an dilemma along these lines.

I have Technics SB-6000A 12 inch woofers with the surrounds completely rotted away. Very tough to find good originals to replace them. When talking to Parts Express about the foam kit, they noted that they wouldn't attempt to do the refoam because they cant get the original part. So, I assume anyone attempting a refoam (including me) will use a generic 12 inch kit.

All that said, I am concerned that a refoam will change the performance of this driver to the point where I may be best suited to go the replacement route. This is a Linear Phase 2 way speaker with a tuned port and the woofer is on the hook for the frequency range up to 2200hz. Opinions?
Click to expand...

Give Bill LeGall a call at Millersound. He does all my speaker work on old stuff like Cizek. Do an internet search for Millersound.
 
I have talked to Bill at Millersound. Seems like the right guy for the job for sure - and reasonable to boot.

The more I dig into the design of the SB6000A the more I think it makes sense to retain/repair the original drivers that were engineered to make these speakers something special. Thx for the input.
 
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As long as you realize what it is you are doing then I don't see why not. For example I am fitting modern tweeters into a pair of Celestion Ditton 66s. I actually had the original tweeters and I sold them because I wanted to improve the HF response. The mid and bass drivers are pretty damn good but those old tweeters not so much. Lucky for me others have already attempted to integrate this tweeter into this design so no groundwork for me to do. But I have no qualms and as long as the driver integrates properly there's no doubt in my mind you can improve on it.

Same with recapping speakers and those kind of mods. Original means degraded. There's no way the caps in a speaker perform like they once did after 20-30 years.

I agree, to heck with it.


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Was hoping Speakerlab/Seattle still did kits. Dropped by their store and found out they'd stopped that approach years ago.....and they referred me to "our own" Parts Express.

Did walk away with a great impression though. A really "hands on gal" came out and fully got us up to speed on speaker wiring and what her years of doing custom installs has taught her. "Do not believe for a second that it's all about the connectors only."

True value is definitely with "finding balance" using cable that matches the performance level of your equipment....short run/$3.00 a foot would be a dynamic change for a worthy system for starters. (Once my main use system is finalized, the better cable is going to be a part of it.)

Never had advise delivered "in her fashion" fail me yet.....you can just see truth in it every time. (Admittedly, not all my gear would require any more than what I have been using already she said, but some sure will require better for sure.)
 
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