Travelling through the land of DACs

RichPA

RichPA

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My journey through the land of DACs started in the early 90s when I bought an Audio Alchemy DDE 2.0 from a now-defunct local shop (the salesman was Greg Weaver, who would go on to become a high-end reviewer for a couple of online publications). This was the start of a long progression of DAC upgrades, which I’ve found to be the most meaningful upgrades over that time (though I’ve gone through multiple speakers, amps, etc. since then). DACs I’ve use since that first one include:

• Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
• Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0 modded by Dusty Vawter, with upgraded power supply
• Perpetual Technologies P-3A DAC
• Perpetual Technologies P-3A DAC with mods by Dusty Vawter, with upgraded power supply
• Monarchy Audio M24 tube dac/preamp
• Benchmark DAC1
• Bel Canto DAC3
• Bel Canto DAC3 factory upgraded with DAC3.5 processor board and VBS power supply

I’ve also had the opportunity to hear a number of other DACs in my system, and had a lot of fun with a
“DAC shootout” at AK Fest 2007 (see http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=106097) Along the way, I’ve used a variety of jitter reducers, upsampling devices, and cables. At every step of the way, I found significant improvements in sound. These improvements have included (in order of importance) reduction of “digital edge,” better imaging, and better (tighter, more solid) bass. I’m now very happy with the upgraded Bel Canto DAC3, but I doubt it’s the end of the line. Some of the generalizations I’ve come to are these:

• DACs matter – a lot. And there has been tremendous progress, especially in the past 10 years.
• Power supplies matter – a lot.
• As DACs have improved, outboard jitter reducers have become irrelevant, and digital cables have come to make less and less (but not no) difference.
• Transports matter. The Bel Canto CD2 is a great transport, but CDs ripped to a VortexBox Appliance (or other HD/NAS setup) are even better.
• There is tremendous potential in digital audio, even in Redbook 16/44.1K, and we have not yet reached the end of the road.

A handful of AKers have heard my digital front end in my own system/listening room, and I think they’ve been favorably impressed. It is now 27 years since I decided that digital audio was the future for me, and while it’s been a long (and expensive) journey, it’s been worth it.
I’m hoping that others will join in this thread with their own experiences with upgrades to digital audio. If the thread takes off, I’ll add some more detail on my own explorations.
 
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Rich have you ever used any other transport than the Bel Canto CD2? I'm just curious if you compared transports at any point (not including ripping them to a hard drive even though you've found that better than the CD2).
 
Mr. Lin said:
Rich have you ever used any other transport than the Bel Canto CD2? I'm just curious if you compared transports at any point (not including ripping them to a hard drive even though you've found that better than the CD2).
Click to expand...

Yes, I have. My first transport was a Rotel RCD-855 CD player. Then I used an Audio Alchemy DDS-Pro, followed by a Theta Pearl - both of those were nice transports that used the Pioneer stable platter mechanism. Then I moved up to the Bel Canto CD2. It was a significant step up from Rotel player to the DDS-Pro and Pearl transports, which were about the same in sound, but the Audio Alchemy developed problems reading discs. The Bel Canto CD2 was a significant step up from those. I tried a number of CD players as transports along the way, but none of them could approach the sound quality of those I mentioned, and none stayed in the system long.
 
What I've done recently is decide that, although I love my CD player, I hate the inconvenience of trying to track down CDs that I want to listen to. So I decided to compromise and use the DAC I have on hand. Or, rather, DACs, and create a server. One of the DACs is that of a Denon DVD-9000 DVD player, via its digital input. And the other I stole form my home recording rig...an Apogee Duet II usb AD/DA interface. The DVD-9000 I use via USB out through a Musical Fidelity V-link asynchronous USB/Coax converter. All using FLAC ripped via XLD played back on Decibel (sbooth audio) with a MacBook Air.

As for the difference between the DACs. The Apogee is clean clear and open, the Denon more authoritative, with more of a substantial sound. They're both good.

The surprise to me? This setup competes really well with my VPI Classic/Zyx turntable and Emm Labs CD player. The EMM Labs player really is my favorite source for sound quality but this rudimentary server setup wins on ease of use points.

My decision now is to try to find out just what is to be gained with a better DAC. The Denon is a formidable digital source in its own right. A former top of the line universal player, it is built like a tank. The Apogee unit is highly regarded in home recording circles for its performance and lineage. But it is also a Microphone preamp, line preamp interface, AD converter, and headphone amp. The DAC isn't an afterthought but its also not the only thought that went into it.

So this is a long winded way of saying...I look forward to ANY conversation on different DACs. I have a McCormack CD transport but I'm really not interested in even dealing with CDs anymore beyond loading them into this server (or some future iteration of it).
 
At the last AK fest, I heard Rich's server based system and I was very impressed. Enough so that I'm shopping for parts to build a HTPC.

Rich, is the BC CD2 a Phillips CD-Pro2 transport? If it is, I'm not surprised it beat out the prior Pioneer based units. It's really an excellent transport in any CDP/Transport that I've heard that's used it.

I had a chance to get a yamamoto YDA-01 DAC a couple of years back and I regret not taking the plunge. It had been modded to have a tubed output stage which put me off.
 
dnewma04 said:
Rich, is the BC CD2 a Phillips CD-Pro2 transport? If it is, I'm not surprised it beat out the prior Pioneer based units. It's really an excellent transport in any CDP/Transport that I've heard that's used it.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is.
 
Rich, what software do you use on your server and how do you like it? Have you compared it to other software packages?
 
Rich, what do you see as the priority list in DAC components? Just as an example of what I mean by the question, would you guess that a 24/96 DAC chip coupled to a great analog section and power supply could sound better than a 32/192 chip teamed with a modest analog section and power supply?

For me, it's really hard to predict which DAC I'll like more. What's fascinating to me is that there's so much black magic in the "digital" process.
 
Mike Gibson said:
Rich, what software do you use on your server and how do you like it? Have you compared it to other software packages?
Click to expand...

You'd think that would be a simple question, wouldn't you? The server runs the VortexBox software package, basically a custom version of Linux/Fedora. It has a built-in automatic ripping feature, but I use dBpoweramp for ripping classical. I run Bliss to update album art, and I use Mp3tag for editing metadata. For indexing and playback, I primarily use the Sonos software, with a Sonos Connect modified by Wyred4Sound to get the music off the server and into the system (see http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=453697). I also have Logitech Media Server.

As you see, I use a variety of software for various functions, because I'm not happy with all of the functions of any one piece of software. I've tried half a dozen more as well. For the playback interface and functionality, I mostly prefer the Sonos system over Logitech Media Server.

You asked :)
 
Negotiableterms said:
Rich, what do you see as the priority list in DAC components? Just as an example of what I mean by the question, would you guess that a 24/96 DAC chip coupled to a great analog section and power supply could sound better than a 32/192 chip teamed with a modest analog section and power supply?

For me, it's really hard to predict which DAC I'll like more. What's fascinating to me is that there's so much black magic in the "digital" process.
Click to expand...

I really have no idea how to answer the first question, though I do think power supplies are extremely important and worth upgrading in many cases. Once upon a time, I'd have said that jitter was most important, but I think that's pretty much a solved problem now. To the second question, I'd say yes. I think the major advantage of greater bit depth and higher sampling rate is the flexibility they afford for digital filter design, and the greater margin of error in doing digital manipulation of the data.
 
There are a bunch of very very nice DACs out there, just depends on how much you want to spend. Probably the cheapest for the money and a very nice one would be the Rega DAC, very hard to beat at the price.
 
Digital music has always been where it was at for me, I started hooking my PC up to my stereo back in the late 90's and have never looked back.
In the early days I just used various soundcards, like Soundblasters (if you want a list I can produce one).

But the card that set it self apart from the others was the Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1 HiFi, I bought in 2007 I think.
Since then I have used a Prodigy Cube, an LD DAC_I and lastly my current Atoll DAC 100.

The biggest improvement I got was not going from a Soundblaster Audigy Value to the Prodigy 7.1 HiFi though, but the LD DAC_I.
Finally something that did bass right, but this is pretty much what the LD DAC does, very good bass, imaging and detail could be better, it's somewhat warm sounding too, the highs tend to sound a bit like bicycle bells on this DAC.
To fix this I first tried getting a Echo Audiofire2, to use as a transport with the LD DAC, and it did wonders for the highs and imaging, but I still felt something was not quite right, especially after I got my Aragon 18k, this preamp is ruthless.

So I went looking for something to replace the DAC_I, and came across the French brand Atoll.
There wasn't much info about this DAC at the time, (it's still scarce) but found a great deal on a demo unit.
This DAC is exceptionally detailed, has great imaging (perfect for live recordings) and is FAST FAST FAST, but a little bit bright sounding.

I'm very happy with it though, other DAC in the same price range would be the Musical Fidelity M1 and the Rega DAC.
It seems I made the right choice, as comparisons between these DAC's has shown me the the Atoll has more of what I want then the others.
The Atoll DAC 100 is known to have a rather modest USB input though, but since I have a Echo Audiofire2, that doesn't matter.
 
Nice post Rich, I enjoyed reading your impressions. I think pure digital front ends are still in their infancy, and have ginormous potential. When I look at the landscape of what's available now I'm not seeing significant strides in innovation above and beyond what Slim devices was was able to show us so many years ago. To be successful there has to be a marriage of advanced hardware AND software, something the old world players in audio haven't fully exploited yet IMO. It makes me very optimistic for the future.
 
Im interested in a DAC box. whats a recommended one for the money ? Ive never even heard of one until I joined the forum. I was just talking to a few salesman on my search for a new cd player, One guy says hes going to bring in some arcam ones, Another guy I talked to on the phone said he sells moon ones. how much money would it cost to improve the sound of my system with a dac ? and how much should I spend on an mp3 ? ive never even owned an mp3 before. So im an mp3/dac noob
 
Currently using a Audio Alchemy transport with the newer Sabre DAC in the TP Buffalo
It is simply outstanding and outshines those older dacs
 
DeafbyKhorns said:
Currently using a Audio Alchemy transport with the newer Sabre DAC in the TP Buffalo
It is simply outstanding and outshines those older dacs
Click to expand...

I've mentioned the Twisted Pear Buffalo Dac many times. Enormous value for the money and is well liked by the friends that have built them. Even better sounding are a couple of excellent DACs that are quite good, but certainly cost more money.

I've got to go for now, but perhaps I can pick up this thread later.

Best Regards,
TerryO
 
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I'm currently using a Audio-gd reference 5.32. Sound and build quality are excellent.
 
Digital is just getting out of it's infancy IMO. A good DAC is needed for a good sounding digital system, but focusing only on the DAC is like only focusing on the tonearm/cartridge of your turntable.

I'd never really been happy with my digital rig regardless of the DAC I'd been using. I've used the Xonar Essence soundcard, the DAC in my Burson 160DS, the Schiit Bifrost, and my current Ultra-Fi DAC41(these DACs really fly under the radar, you can sometimes get them used for a steal). No matter the DAC I used my digital system sounded harsh and artificial, it sounded 'digital'.

That pretty much left me with three choices: Cables, software, or just going full on analog. Number 3 wasn't an option as I listen to a lot of modern music that doesn't have a vinyl or cassette release, number 1 wasn't an option as I don't have the money to spend on things I can't test ahead of time, so that left 2.

I'd been using Jriver, which I paid $50 for a few years back as I found it to sound clearer than Foobar/Winamp/Media Monkey/WMP/etc. I'd tested them all. Then I heard of Jplay. It has a lot of marketing speak behind it, but they had a demo so I went for it. I was in between DACs at the time(AKA using onboard audio) and I heard a difference with it but it didn't really impress me. After further disappointment with my digital front end when I got my Ultra-Fi I decided to give it another go and I was floored. It's not analog, but it's closer than anything else I've heard.

For the past 20 years or so DAC manufacturers have been trying to build their DACs to resist jitter and noise, the highest end DACs using buffers and such to reduce the effect. That seems as silly as converting your vinyl to digital, applying noise reduction, and transferring it back. You're fixing a problem rather than preventing it in the first place.

Audiophile software is probably more controversial than the whole cable debate but it's easily demoed. I'd suggest anyone here serious about digital giving Jplay or another memory player a try. It wasn't quite the improvement getting a new DAC made but it went a long way to making my CDs sound good.

As for DACs I'd recommend an Ultra-Fi like mine. I haven't heard any other DACs higher end than the Schiit Bifrost but I'm happy enough with it to call it an end game purchase. Plus if you buy one used like I did you'd be paying about the same price as the Bifrosts go for new.
 
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