Tube amp circuit breaker instead of fuse.

idadude

Super Member
Is there a circuit breaker type device that can be used on an amplifier which could be used instead of a fuse? What I am thinking of would allow full power to an amplifier's power supply without the restriction of the tiny wire found in a fuse, but would be either pre-set or adjustable (amperage-wise) so that it would break contact when faced with a short or overload. Does anyone make such a device?

I see all these huge power cords which are supposed to make a difference for the better, but I'm wondering how they could make much of an improvement when the power still has to go through a tiny fuse. I also think that if there were a direct connection, then you could really tell a difference in the power cord. It would be nice to know if such a device exists.

Larry D.
 
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In the late 1960s/early 1970s some consumer solid state hifi receivers used push-to-reset circuit breakers (also very common in the vacuum tube color TVs of the same era). The Marantz Twenty-Six is an example (the "protector" in this photo):




These gizmos weren't great, then or now. They may no longer even be legal/available for sale.

For hifi, I think it is hard to beat a fuse.

If you want to pass current unfettered, you could of course replace the fuse with a piece of copper buss bar... but you might regret that choice anon (and your fire insurance company might want to know about it, too).
 
Many of the 1960's-1970's tube & early solid state units had circuit breakers.
but I'm not sure there would be any change in resistance,as most types need resistance to develope heat to trip,or open(fuse)I has an altec 353 tube integrated amp that had a circuit breaker.
 
The problem with circuit breakers is they require a huge overload to open instantly, and will allow a slight overload from several seconds to a whole minute before opening!
 
Looks as if it may be profitable to design a device that would disengage the circuit when a sudden measured resistance is detected. I'm not having a problem with fuses, but just see them as a weak link/restriction in the power supply chain.

I have a Sherwood S5000 that uses a 1.5 amp fuse and the fuse's wire is quite small. That got me thinking about a circuit breaker type thing to replace the fuse. Finding such a thing with a 1.5 amp equivalent rating may be asking a bit much. I'll have to hit up my electrical engineer buddy to see how difficult it would be to design such a device.

After thinking it through, I should just try bypassing the fuse for a quick test and 'see' if I can hear a difference. If not, then I can scrap the idea. If I can hear a distinct difference, then I should get a hold of my EE friend and try to put something together.

Larry D.
 
If you open up a power transistor that carries several amps, you will also see
a short tiny wire connecting the chip to the external leads. The keyword here
is 'short'. There is no reason to regard a properly selected fuse as a weak link.

A fuse probably remains a better protection in terms of response time
than any electromechanical breaker. Electronic circuits can of course outperform
a fuse, but then you move away from the idea of something simple...
 
The problem with circuit breakers is they require a huge overload to open instantly, and will allow a slight overload from several seconds to a whole minute before opening!

It is the same with fuses, depending on the specific fuse type.

In general the time to blow rating on a fuse will include a rating time to blow at 100 percent overload, that is twice the rated current. This is usually at least 60 seconds or more.

That is a 5 ampere rated fuse will handle up to 10 amperes for at least 60 seconds.

Clearing (Total operating) Time.

The total time between the beginning of the over current and the final opening of the circuit at system voltage. Clearing time is the total of the melting time and the arcing time.

Of course this depends on the type of fuse.

Of course one can choose one of the many varieties of fast acting fuses. However, these fuses then would have to be sized to handle any brief overloads that might occur, such as turn on surge current, which might be several times the normal operating current.

As a visual example of this, think about the operation of the DBT (DIM BULB TESTER) and how the light bulb may flash to full brilliance when a piece of gear is first turned on, then settle down to a very dim glow on a correctly working piece of gear.

If a fuse is not sized correctly it may fail prematurely when subjected to repeated short duration overloads.

Fuses that seem to fail prematurely may indicate and issue with a piece of gear or an improperly selected fuse, either as to type or rating or its installation. Even the type and condition of the fuse holder may have a measurable affect on the performance of fuse.


The selection of a circuit breaker or fuse for a particular application from a design perspective is not as simple as it might seem at first glance.


In general, as has been stated before, a circuit breaker will still have some I^2*R loses, although there are ways to reduce this in more sophisticated circuit breakers.

Current transformers and magnetic field sensing devices are couple of methods, but they may become a little pricey for general use.

Of course there are the myriad audiophile fuses that are available, however that is another can of worms.

BTW, a sudden measured resistance, thanks to Mister Ohm, is actually current. Remember, resistance is a measured voltage drop at a specific current. You can not measure resistance with out a voltage drop.

One could endeavor to reduce this resistance, however a normal fast acting 5 ampere fuse may have a Nominal Resistance of about 0.02 Ohms, rather small in the overall scheme of things.

The key element here is safety. If one were to use an electronic means to measure the voltage drop across a specific very low value resistance and use this signal to trip a circuit contactor, if you have a failure in your fuse electronics so to speak, then you may have a safety issue.

There are already some very sophisticated methods using electronic circuits for circuit protection protection, but for everyday use it is hard to beat a properly selected fuse.
 
If it really bothers you, try a 22 gauge (white) fuseable link. That works out to about 5 amps which is good for most tube amps.

Hard part will be finding one in "audiophile" grade ... <G>

Should be available at most any auto parts.

There's also some folk have experimented with replacing the fuse with a ceramic capacitor. Try goooOOOooogling that.

Tube amps, I'm more worried about short cycling. Power blips can do a lot of damage because the caps aren't allowed to discharge properly as they would with a normal shutdown. Solution there is a NON-LATCHING GFCI adapter ...

rp7801.jpg


TRC 26020L-4-001 Shockshield Inline GFCI

The non-latching is important. That means if the power fails, it trips and needs to be reset manually. Let it rest for a couple minutes after a blip, and you've eliminated any chance of short cycling your amp.
 
A power monitoring circuit is widely used in industry. you have an current transformer monitoring drawn current and a relay that acts as breaker.

This enables you to program it to accept higher current at startup and different overloads during longtime and shorts.

But it will add more stuff.

Everything has a resistance even the most modern FETs and relays so the short piece of wire in the fuse isn´t a very big issue.
 
Resistance of the fuse is insignificant compared to resistance of all that tiny wire in the primary of the power transformer... or output transformer for that matter.

There ARE circuit breakers that will fit in the 1/2" hole for a fuse holder - most are larger behind the panel though. But I'd trust a fuse more than these small thermal breakers...
 
I see all these huge power cords which are supposed to make a difference for the better, but I'm wondering how they could make much of an improvement when the power still has to go through a tiny fuse.

Those fancy looking power cords don't make any difference. Except for some that are shielded, but you could find computer power cords that are shielded. The shielding may help avoid hum pickup. Beyond that, it doesn't matter. Anything UL approved will work fine.
 
Looks like I got an answer.

The question of 'Wouldn't a circuit breaker type device sound better? Maybe boost the dynamics a little?' came to mind and I wanted to hear your input on the subject rather than wonder about it from this point on, so it looks as if I'll leave the fuse intact instead of spending a lot of time at something that is not worth the bother.

I appreciate the input everyone. Thanks.

Larry D.
 
Stromberg-Carlson actually used breakers in some of their gear. My ASR-433 has one. Honestly its a bit of a kludgey affair that I don't fully trust to protect much of anything. Unfortunately I'm out of fuse holders until I order some more parts so it'll have to stay until then.
 
Is there a circuit breaker type device that can be used on an amplifier which could be used instead of a fuse? What I am thinking of would allow full power to an amplifier's power supply without the restriction of the tiny wire found in a fuse, but would be either pre-set or adjustable (amperage-wise) so that it would break contact when faced with a short or overload. Does anyone make such a device?

I see all these huge power cords which are supposed to make a difference for the better, but I'm wondering how they could make much of an improvement when the power still has to go through a tiny fuse. I also think that if there were a direct connection, then you could really tell a difference in the power cord. It would be nice to know if such a device exists.

Larry D.

This reasoning has always made sense to me, every time I look at a 3amp fast blow fuse and can't see the wire to tell if it's bad or not. I dissected one of the breakers I use and it had nice silver plated contact pads about the size of a paper match head. I use these, at ab out 3 bux each. They will usually fit right where the old fuse holder was, but sometimes you have to make the hole a hair bigger with a step drill or something.

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/418/NG_DS_1308242_W28_1010-66061.pdf
 
Jay.........

These won't work in my Sherwood S-5000 which uses a 1.5 amp fuse, but I can try them out in other projects. (Damn, just received an order from Mouser.)

Have you ever had one of these breakers trip on an amp? Just wanting to be sure they work well and do their job.

Just got an email from Hayseed Hamfest and my 500V 105C can caps for three Sherwood S5000s are on their way. Now I can finish getting them all rebuilt, lytic-wise. Yay! Haven't had the money to do it until now. I'll be glad to be able to listen to them. There was not a good section on any of the can capacitors that I checked with my Sencore LC-101. They were all leaky and over 100% out of spec. Like I said, it will be nice to hear what they actually sound like.

Larry D.
 
I think that the AC mains are carrying plenty of hum on their own.

:) Well, shielding can keep the hum in (conserve energy! :) ), as well as keeping hum out. Depends where the hum source is. :)

If your house is wired with BX armored housewire, the armor will act like a shield to keep the hum inside. Also the power wires inside the armor are a twisted pair, a lot like microphone cable. Romex is usually untwisted, and has no shielding. Whether this really matters is another question. :scratch2:
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Those fancy looking power cords don't make any difference. Except for some that are shielded, but you could find computer power cords that are shielded. The shielding may help avoid hum pickup. Beyond that, it doesn't matter. Anything UL approved will work fine.

:lurk::lurk:
 
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