Tube amplifier as hifi signal processor

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Kjell-B

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Tube amp as signal processor (2x60W changes to 2x250W)

:)

I have found that an optimum balance between tube sound and solid state sound can be achieved through the use of a good tube amplifier as a hifi signal processor (sound processor), also see the pictures posted below. The tube amp is then coupled to a so-called dynamic load instead of speakers, and a line output circuit is made from the speaker outputs L and R. This line signal is finally fed to the input of a solid state amplifier. The whole system is very easy to set up. One big advantage is the almost unlimited power and broad selection of suitable speakers.

While probably any tube amp can be used, I would especially recommend the fantastic chinese Music Angel KT88 amplifier (also known as model XD-800) – it sounds like a vintage Harman Kardon Citation II amplifier (and most chinese amps do not !). This amp is very popular since it is rather cheap costing US $ 400 from Hong Kong and seems to be very reliable. The internal construction is complex and containing lots of separate power supplies.

As a dynamic load the Weber Stereo Mass (a “speaker motor”) was tested and found to interact very favorably with the amplifier. When it was replaced by a 8 ohm power resistor the sound became thin and brittle – of no use.

The 4 ohm speaker outputs are taken to the Weber load, while the 8 ohms are used as signal outputs to next (solid state high power) amplifier - yielding line level through a resistor network (a voltage divider), see the figures at the bottom of this post.

The Weber Stereo Mass also has a set of speaker outputs (for reduced power); these are not used here. So the two big pots are instead used as an adjustment of the load in the treble region – they should be turned maximum counter-clockwise, then can be used for fine tuning of the treble region. Both switches should be set in the down position; the upper is a bypass switch (note that a tube amp should never run without a load !), the lower is not used in the present application.

Info on the various Weber units:
http://www.tedweber.com/atten.htm

You never get a transistor amp sound like this - extremely dynamic and full tube sound !

Pictures from left to right:

1) Weber Stereo Mass dynamic load
2) Internal circuit of the Weber unit
3) System set up with Music Angel tube amp as processor

Later added:
4) Shown here is a simple diagram of the actual voltage divider as used by this author. I have kept two of the long threads from the resistors and simply fixed them directly to the speaker output connectors. If a ground lift is needed (to remove hum loops), a 100 ohm resistor can be added to the amp negative output (earth, 0 ohm). I did not experience any problem. All resistors should be 1/2W Allen-Bradley or similar carbon composition. Avoid metal film and metal oxide in passive circuits.

:)
 

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What you are proposing is using a valve amplifier as a valve pre-amplifier. This has been done by some decades ago.

I just wanted to clear something up which comes across a tad confusing.

If the Valve amplifier is 60 watts per channel at the outputs and you insert it in the Transistor amplifier’s inputs, which is 200 watts per channel, the Transistor amplifier’s output remains at 200 watts per channel.

Best Regards,
 
1) What you are proposing is using a valve amplifier as a valve pre-amplifier. This has been done by some decades ago.

I just wanted to clear something up which comes across a tad confusing.

2) If the Valve amplifier is 60 watts per channel at the outputs and you insert it in the Transistor amplifier’s inputs, which is 200 watts per channel, the Transistor amplifier’s output remains at 200 watts per channel.

Best Regards,



1) No, that is perhaps not the case. What I propose, is to use a valve amplifier (tube amp) as a complete amp with a speaker-simulating load at the output. Note that a low-ohm load is needed since we talk about a tube power amp here.

But it is true that guitar players may use a similar circuit in the studio, where Weber products find their place. Maybe you were referring to that practice ?

Anyway, what is obtained, is a kind of tube preamp circuit that sounds like a complete tube amp connected to a speaker. I feel many enthusiasts are seeking a solution like this, and then a regular "simple" tube preamplifier will sound quite disappointing to them.

2) What I refer to here is the tube amp's output when used alone as compared to the total set up shown here. When used as a signal processor, the actual tube power output is of little interest; the resistor network at the output reduces this power to a weak line signal, which is fed to the transistor amp.

The result: 2x250W hifi tube sound from a regular quite cheap tube amp.

:)
 
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I think I understand it now. The wires leading to the SS amp are going to the inputs. I initially thought they were paralleled with the outputs of the SS amp and I didn't understand how this would do anything. It's interesting, I'd like to try it.
 
1) No, that is perhaps not the case. What I propose, is to use a valve amplifier (tube amp) as a complete amp with a speaker-simulating load at the output. Note that a low-ohm load is needed since we talk about a tube power amp here.

But it is true that guitar players may use a similar circuit in the studio, where Weber products find their place. Maybe you were referring to that practice ?

Anyway, what is obtained, is a kind of tube preamp circuit that sounds like a complete tube amp connected to a speaker. I feel many enthusiasts are seeking a solution like this, and then a regular "simple" tube preamplifier will sound quite disappointing to them.

2) What I refer to here is the tube amp's output when used alone as compared to the total set up shown here. When used as a signal processor, the actual tube power output is of little interest; the resistor network at the output reduces this power to a weak line signal, which is fed to the transistor amp.

The result: 2x250W hifi tube sound from a regular quite cheap tube amp.

:)


I am sorry to say but this sounds like a lot of marketing hype.

Do you have any documentation with measured graphs? How do you know this is not just an equaliser with a few presets? You would be surprised what a parametric can do with a wide enough Q.

I was not referring to guitar amplifiers. A lot of vintage amplifiers (whether valve or semiconductor) were subjected of being connected together (output -> input) with the false assumption the wattage is increased when it is just an extra set of tone controls with an added volume control. This may be new to you but it has been done for decades.

As you mentioned, the valve amplifier just needs to see a load in which a resistor will not only deliver resistance but also lower the voltage so it won't overdrive the inputs of the amplifier you are routing it to.


Where are you getting this 2X250 watt?

A 200 watt per channel @ 8 ohms amplifier will accept anywhere from 1.0 - 1.5 input voltage to reach it's maximum output of 200 watts.

To achieve 50 watts @ 1.5 volts, you will need a resistance 0.045 ohms. That is too low for a transistor (Pro Amps 2 ohms minimum) much less a valve amplifiers (4 ohms minimum) output to manage. You would also need a current flow of 33 amperes, which means the cable would need to be 10 AWG going from the output of one amplifier into the input of the other. There is also the great chance of burning up your op-amps even if someone was crazy enough to try this.

I don't nor does the Ohm's Law see how you are getting 250 watts from an amplifier that is only 200 watts by connecting the output of one amplifier that can offer 50 watts per channel @ 8 ohms into the input of another amplifier that can deliver 200 watts per channel in an 8-ohm load.

You are still at 200 watts per channel @ 8 ohms. What you gain is more tone control.




Best Regards,
 
:)

I am sorry, but you have misunderstood most of the circuit I describe - and I have already explained it. I have also explained why a simple 8 ohm power resistor could not be used. I did not understand the marketing part above.

As explained earlier, there is no relationship between the output of the valve amp and the 250 W transistor amp. Also, the load to the valve output has no relationship to the line level needed to the next power amp. You must instead AFTER the load use a specific voltage divider circuit. Since a simple 8 ohm circuit could NOT be used, a divider circuit of much higher impedance had to be inserted. This is otherwise simple electronics.

The transistor amp may be 2x100W, 2x250W or 2x1000W - you can just choose any amp you want here.

I suggest you study my diagrams more carefully. There is of course no equalizer involved - and the Weber unit selected here has no equalizer in it.

:)
 
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:)

There is of course no equalizer involved - and the Weber unit selected here have no equalizer in it.

:)

There is, inasmuch as interaction of the Weber unit and the tube amp output influences the signal provided to the SS amp input.
 
It seems to me like the tube amp is being used as a preamp since the tube amp outputs are reduced to feed a SS amp.

I'll just keep my tube amps that sound tube-like, because they are.

I agree with the "marketing" comment made above as there is no reason to waste a tube amp just to feed the input of a SS amp.
 
There is, inasmuch as interaction of the Weber unit and the tube amp output influences the signal provided to the SS amp input.



There is a capacitor circuit to compensate for the higher impedance of the inductive motor load at higher frequencies. The role of this capacitor is to produce a linear impedance of the load. As I mentioned in my original post - the action of this capacitor can be reduced by turning the big pot clock-wise. Thus there is a weak EQ effect - but in my own tests it was not a necessary part of the set up.

The good sound is not due to an EQ effect - that is my point.

Of course, the Weber unit may not have a perfect linear impedance, and should be expected to behave similar as an average speaker. Thus the influence on the tube amp frequency response should be similar. That is also my point. The tube amp need to work into a speaker-like load to deliver a "full tube sound". This is much more than frequency response.

:)
 
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1) I'll just keep my tube amps that sound tube-like, because they are.

2) I agree with the "marketing" comment made above as there is no reason to waste a tube amp just to feed the input of a SS amp.



1) But what about all the others, who want tube sound and 2x250 W ?
I write for them and would like to help any power-hungry hifi friend.

2) Please explain. I have no connection to Weber or any chinese tube amp company, and present my findings as an enthusiastic hifi amateur and tube friend.

:)
 
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1) But what about all the others, who want tube sound and 2x250 W.
I write for them and would like to help any power-hungry hifi friend.

2) Please explain. I have no connection to Weber or any chinese tube amp company, and present my findings as an enthusiastic hifi amateur and tube friend.

:)

A tube preamp would accomplish the same purpose as what you propose doing here, and you still end up with a SS amp driving the speakers.

Most folks that use tube amps have higher efficiency speakers that don't need "mega-watts" to run.

And considering you "highly recommended" the chinese tube amp seems to be somewhat like a sales pitch!

Why would someone use KT88's to drive a line level input on a SS amp is a mystery to me. You can use a tube preamp to drive a SS amp.
 
1) A tube preamp would accomplish the same purpose as what you propose doing here, and you still end up with a SS amp driving the speakers.

2) Why would someone use KT88's to drive a line level input on a SS amp is a mystery to me. You can use a tube preamp to drive a SS amp.


1) Not true. A tube preamp sounds very different from a tube power amp connected to a speaker-like load. That is very well known in the studio world (guitar players etc.). And I have tried lots of preamps. Not much similarity to the full tube sound obtained with my circuit. There is a kind of vintage quality and vinyl quality to the sound, while the solid state output delivers everything wanted in the bass department.

2) In the old days of vinyl, the cutting head was driven by a 6V6 or 6L6 tube power amp, influencing the famous vinyl sound from Decca, EMI, RCA and all the others during the 50's and 60's. I feel my circuit here delivers some of the same sound. Just sounds great.

Also, the big tubes can use output transformers of lower primary impedance. And anyway, these tube amps sound great and can be had for small money from China these days.

:)
 
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i think the gentleman is simply offering a unique way of experimenting with amplification and is operating in the spirit of sharing information....my guess...
 
I think I understand it now. The wires leading to the SS amp are going to the inputs. I initially thought they were paralleled with the outputs of the SS amp and I didn't understand how this would do anything. It's interesting, I'd like to try it.



Yes you are right. Try it. It is quite a radical change to traditional thinking.

My Weber unit had faulty high contact resistance in the switches, but following operating them repeatedly (some 20-30 turns), they worked perfect. So it is probably just a little oxidation on the metal from long-term storage.

It is also easy to solder the bypass switch permanently in position ON. The lower switch has no function in my application.

:)
 
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Kjell-B, were you at the original Triode Fest in Arhus many years ago?



No, but I know (knew) some of the people involved. My country is Norway and I have had several scandinavian contacts during the years.

Nice to meet people here. And great to see the rebirth of tube amps at prices people can pay.

:)
 
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