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Upgrade from an Aragon 4004 mkII?

isRelative

isRelative

Show Me What You Got
Hello AK'ers,

So I have an Aragon 4004 mkII and have been looking at a few other amps from brands such as McCormack, Krell, Odyssey, Mark Levinson, First Watt (Pass Labs), Bryston, etc.

I don't want to spend a lot of money and realize that I've made a lateral move. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the brands I've listed and found them to be a large step up from something like my Aragon (which I think is worth ~$700).

In case anyone is wondering, I'll be running it with a tube preamplifier. In case I don't know what speakers I'll be using, I'd like for the power amp to be able to drive low impedance speakers; I believe the Aragon is stable down to 1 ohm!!

Thanks!
 
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The Aragon 4004 MkII is no slouch amp. Without spending a lot of $$ you are probably making a lateral move. IMHO You have an amp that will run low impedances all day long with no issues BTW!
Regards,
Jim
 
ehoove said:
The Aragon 4004 MkII is no slouch amp. Without spending a lot of $$ you are probably making a lateral move. IMHO You have an amp that will run low impedances all day long with no issues BTW!
Regards,
Jim
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Yeah, the Aragon is stable down to 1-2 ohms I believe, which is amazing. Just wondering if I could be doing better. I'm wondering if I could be doing better with a budget of ~$1000 or if I'd have to spend considerably more.
 
Suggest spending Large on Decent speakers Where there WILL be audible differences. Amps, once past a certain quality level are only subtly differing.
Speakers on the other hand can be wildly different.
 
The Aragon is a superb amp which hits way out of its price range. Enough so that the question may be, why spend more?
 
I'm unfamiliar with the KEF's ; I looked them up and it appears they are likely to be fairly easy to drive and so I would look to getting better speakers over improving your amp.

I have heard Krells (very similar in sound as the designer D'agastino was involved in Krell and Aragon). I also heard McCormack and actually preferred it over the Aragon I currently own (it seemed to have more finesse and subtle detail).

In conclusion, you now may be entering the "system interaction zone"... you will be trying to maximize the sound of your system , however the bang per buck may seriously decrease.

If you like the general sound of the KEF family and you can spare the space, you may want to try moving up in their line.

Good luck on your hunt!

- DeeCee
 
DeeCee said:
I'm unfamiliar with the KEF's ; I looked them up and it appears they are likely to be fairly easy to drive and so I would look to getting better speakers over improving your amp.

I have heard Krells (very similar in sound as the designer D'agastino was involved in Krell and Aragon). I also heard McCormack and actually preferred it over the Aragon I currently own (it seemed to have more finesse and subtle detail).

In conclusion, you now may be entering the "system interaction zone"... you will be trying to maximize the sound of your system , however the bang per buck may seriously decrease.

If you like the general sound of the KEF family and you can spare the space, you may want to try moving up in their line.

Good luck on your hunt!

- DeeCee
Click to expand...

Well, the part of my system that changes the most are my speakers. I recently had a pair of Dynaudio Audience 52's that were 4-ohm speakers, which are considerably harder to drive.

I was just wondering what I'd have to pay to gain a noticeable increase in performance and sound quality, and to some extent what the limitations of my Aragon were.

Thanks guys!
 
Hmmmmmm.... that is a highly subjective question. It looks like you are butting against incremental improvements versus cost, which likely would be a matter of taste rather than all out performance increase.

As I have owned my Aragon for several years, my observed performance drawbacks (minor) were a lack of refinement in soundstaging or microdynamics.

Comparable amps that I liked better was the McCormack (deluxe versions or better) and Jeff Rowland amps (which out classed it but over doubled the price). BAT amps also are superb, however my speakers are Aerial Acoustic Model 7s (original versions) and they require some "oomph" to drive coherently.

Each speaker/amp combo will have different requirements which make your kind of question difficult to have a succinct answer for...

You may want to try tubes for a different presentation (I've liked BAT and Quicksilver that I have heard personally)

DeeCee
 
BEFORE you "upgrade" from the Aragon 4004, assure that the DC offset and output transistor bias is at factory spec. Next up would be testing/replacing the various electrolytic capacitors as they're at or nearly at the end of their service life. I'm thinking that the 4004 Mk II was introduced in '90 or '91, and discontinued in '95. The big cans were very high-quality units and therefore expensive, test 'em before ordering replacements. Having done that...you've got an amp that outclasses pretty much everything in it's price class. (yes, I'm biased.) When it was my turn to "upgrade" from the 4004, I bought the 8008. Not everyone considers that an upgrade, by the way.

The 4004 was stable to BELOW 1 ohm; some advertising claimed it would drive "a dead short" although they didn't specify how long or at what volume level it would drive such a load before popping the 8-amp + and - rail voltage fuses.

Looking at modern "high-current" amplifiers, very few have the Aragon's transformer capacity even if they have similar filter capacitance. The Aragon amps were built expressly to make low-impedance speakers accessible/usable for folks who couldn't pop for Krell or Levinson-level gear.

The downside to your Aragon is if you'd ever pop an output transistor, you'd be more-or-less screwed as Aragon matched each group of four transistors. It would be almost impossible to match a random replacement--so robbing groups of four from other Aragon amps would be the only practical alternative.
 
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Schurkey said:
BEFORE you "upgrade" from the Aragon 4004, assure that the DC offset and output transistor bias is at factory spec. Next up would be testing/replacing the various electrolytic capacitors as they're at or nearly at the end of their service life. I'm thinking that the 4004 Mk II was introduced in '90 or '91, and discontinued in '95. The big cans were very high-quality units and therefore expensive, test 'em before ordering replacements. Having done that...you've got an amp that outclasses pretty much everything in it's price class. (yes, I'm biased.) When it was my turn to "upgrade" from the 4004, I bought the 8008. Not everyone considers that an upgrade, by the way.

The 4004 was stable to BELOW 1 ohm; some advertising claimed it would drive "a dead short" although they didn't specify how long or at what volume level it would drive such a load before popping the 8-amp + and - rail voltage fuses.

Looking at modern "high-current" amplifiers, very few have the Aragon's transformer capacity even if they have similar filter capacitance. The Aragon amps were built expressly to make low-impedance speakers accessible/usable for folks who couldn't pop for Krell or Levinson-level gear.

The downside to your Aragon is if you'd ever pop an output transistor, you'd be more-or-less screwed as Aragon matched each group of four transistors. It would be almost impossible to match a random replacement--so robbing groups of four from other Aragon amps would be the only practical alternative.
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I have DC offset and bias spec'd to what they're supposed to be, but all of the electrolytics inside are original. They drive whatever I throw at them effortlessly, but I was just wondering if I was missing out on something.

I haven't heard much else besides the Aragon because I lucked out and got my first "dream amp" pretty early in my audiophile journey, so I guess I don't know what I don't know haha.
 
You can certainly chase the dragon of "better" but in reality the 4004 II is a KILLER amp. I've owned several over the years ( and will probably pick up another one at some point) . I opted to grab a pair of Aragon Palladiums which was the only reason I parted ways with the 4004 MKII.

The 4004 MKII held it's own in comparison to my McIntosh MC7300, MC7270, Crown SA-2 , Accuphase P300 and Nikko Alpha 440.

You can certainly buy MORE amplifier but You will be hard pressed to find a better amp for what a 4004/4004 MKII is selling for on the used market. It may not have the OHHH AHHHHH name of Levinson , Krell, Primare, Plinius or Spectral Labs but Aragon built some killer amps. and Indy Audio Labs is keeping that torch burning too. I've heard some nice things about the new Aragon Line. But I'm happy with my current stable of amplifiers. Maybe sometime down the road a pair of their Iridium Mono Amps will come in and join the Family.

Only amp I like as much as the 4004/8008 BB is the amp I'm always giving high praise for.. The Audire Otez and it's little brother the Audire Forte.
 
Nobody said it was an inexpensive hobby...

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don't get stuck in one genre.. (me)
 
Do you guys think a Krell KSA-100 would be a step up or a lateral move. Full Class A Operation, 100wpc @ 8, 200wpc @ 4, 400wpc @ 2, and 800wpc @ 1 ohm. I think I can pick it up for ~$1200?
 
isRelative said:
Do you guys think a Krell KSA-100 would be a step up or a lateral move. Full Class A Operation, 100wpc @ 8, 200wpc @ 4, 400wpc @ 2, and 800wpc @ 1 ohm. I think I can pick it up for ~$1200?
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I'd say that it MAY be a step up if 100 watts meets your needs. The Aragon would cost a bit more than half of the Krell used.

The larger question is whether both amps are operating as designed. Both are old enough that they could be wounded to greater or lesser degrees; and problems may not be apparent with just a "test drive" before purchase.
 
The consensus has been that the Aragon is a keeper, but its obvious that you want something different. Nothing wrong with that, but you are going to just have roll the dice and buy something to hear for yourself if the extra expense is a gain or just good money spent for a frou frou brand name or the perception of " mo betta" ( more /better).

The 4004 II seems to be an albatross for you, its weighing on you and that feeling may not go away until you finally try something else which will either confirm the aragon's prowess or validate your need for change.

Krell makes a solid amp. So its unlikely that things will sound worse, but its no guarantee either.
 
I'd look at Perreaux amps from the late 80's onwards, if you can find any, but keep the Aragon.
 
Bostown said:
The consensus has been that the Aragon is a keeper, but its obvious that you want something different. Nothing wrong with that, but you are going to just have roll the dice and buy something to hear for yourself if the extra expense is a gain or just good money spent for a frou frou brand name or the perception of " mo betta" ( more /better).

The 4004 II seems to be an albatross for you, its weighing on you and that feeling may not go away until you finally try something else which will either confirm the aragon's prowess or validate your need for change.

Krell makes a solid amp. So its unlikely that things will sound worse, but its no guarantee either.
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It's not that I don't love the Aragon, it's just that I got my 'dream amp' so early in my audiophile journey I'm just curious if I've missed out on anything haha
 
i had a chance to audition a Aragon 4004 for a few days and it is a great amplifier but it just did not have the power i needed so i ended up buying my sae A501 .

you can still pick up a vintage amp that has real muscle for under the price you have stated the Aragon 4004 is worth,i could have gotten the one offered to me for $300 , now i wished i had picked it up
 
turbomustang said:
i had a chance to audition a Aragon 4004 for a few days and it is a great amplifier but it just did not have the power i needed so i ended up buying my sae A501 .

you can still pick up a vintage amp that has real muscle for under the price you have stated the Aragon 4004 is worth,i could have gotten the one offered to me for $300 , now i wished i had picked it up
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The SAE is only 50 wpc more :P
 
isRelative said:
The SAE is only 50 wpc more :P
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Not the numbers game again :) to each their own. I'd take an Accuphase P300 (rated as what some would consider a paltry 100wpc) over that SAE amp everyday of the week and twice on Sunday, but everyone has their own spin on this audio thing. there really are no wrong choices so long as the user is happy in the end.
 
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