Use a SUT with a MC capable phono preamp?

[twoengine]

I have a NAD PP2e phono preamp. My turntable is a Pro-ject Debut Carbon with Denon dl-103 low output moving coil cartridge. My question is, would using a step-up transformer with moving magnet setting be better than just using the moving coil setting without step-up transformer on the phono preamp? Or to put it another way, is it better to use SUT with lower gain than no SUT with higher gain?

Thanks in advance.

 

[truckrglenn]

Now I'm confused.:sigh:

 

[Hyperion]

The way those calculations are moving it actually sounds like the DL-103 would be a good match for an SME Series IIIS arm?

 

[dosmalo]

It's kinda complicated [.........

......]is the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon tonearm. The older version of it, with 8.5 grams of effective mass, is possibly one of the worst matches for the DL-103. Even the new versions of their tonearms with 6.5 grams of effective mass are on the upper fringe when it comes to resonant frequency of the DL-103.

Now I'm confused.:sigh:

I am too now.
The DL-103 being a low compliance cart rig should like an 8.5 more than a 6.5 gram of effective mass so, in my head, 6.5 should be the worst possible match and the 8.5 the upper fringe.

Splain?

 

[sqlsavior]

I have a NAD PP2e phono preamp. My turntable is a Pro-ject Debut Carbon with Denon dl-103 low output moving coil cartridge. My question is, would using a step-up transformer with moving magnet setting be better than just using the moving coil setting without step-up transformer on the phono preamp? Or to put it another way, is it better to use SUT with lower gain than no SUT with higher gain?

Thanks in advance.

A Denon AU-300LC step up transformer would be a perfect match with your Denon. No need for an EE degree. If it doesn't sound better than through the MC section, I'll eat my hat.

You might try blu-tacking a nickel on your headshell, then re-adjust the tracking force, and give it a listen. If the bass lacks force, too light a tonearm is likely why.

 

[for_p1]

Good MC amp will have lower hum and noise level than MM amp with SUP. This is a real fact. Another fact is that no one can make low noise MC phono preamp using conventional tubes, so it leaves one with solid state technology only. Any magnetic device in single chain adds way more distortion than capacitor. When people talk about eliminating capacitors in signal pass, why insist on inserting transformer? I know for sure some people like distorted sound, but why recommend it to someone else.

 

[twoengine]

tnsilver,

Are you saying my tonearm is not a good match for the dl-103 because the tonearm is low mass and the cartridge is low compliance? Well, I must say that even if it isn't a good match that it sounds fantastic to my ears and is a definite nice upgrade from the stock Ortofon 2M Red cartridge. I don't notice any problems with frequency response and it tracks great. Please explain what resonant frequency of the dl-103 is. What does that mean?

 

[MudSlideSlim]

To answer your SUT question; that depends on.... The various Denon DU 300 and 320 etc (SUTs) were of exceptional quality and surprise, suprise, worked so well with Denon DLs LOMCs. In the not too distant past they would show up on e bay for a song; "like a dead head sticker on a Cadillac". So lots of us would wax poetic about the mythical powers of SUTs. But the are getting harder to find and are not as inexpensive as the used to be. I'm a Denon DU, DL, DP fanboy and it is all about the price rewards ratio. The SUT discussions can get vary' how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.' with their sensitive nuances palate . But Denon still rules you can find MC, SUTs and TT for 10x the price but most of us live in the real world, except for Donald Trump. " Oh where do you summer? Oh I'm sorry to hear that!, yet I have traveled much in Concord"

In recent years there have been more reasonable priced and higher quality phono preamps which some might argue are superior to using SUTs. Your NAD PP 2e is an example of this others are Emotiva, I phono, Jasmine, Musical Surroundings, etc.
I bought an Emotiva XPS- 1 ($138) and I was shocked and surprised by how good it sounds.

I can see where you are coming from; you got a good entry level product and you want to something better. I can share that in spades. I have a DU 300 and I kick myself I didn't buy a DU 340. I love voluminous big sound stage Trannies. (Just a little Kinks Lola humor). Denon MCs have a special open lushness without that digital glare, your mileage might...

Sqlsaviors advise was good and is exactly what I would of said but even DU300 is getting harder to find for a decent price. I would keep my eyes peeled for one. Miracles do happen. As I said they work well with Denon LOMCs, but I might be bidding too.

The issue of matching the fabled DL103 to its proper tone arm is full of drama and shouldn't be confused with SUTs, That's why the equally admired DL 301 II is so popular because it can be used on a wider range of tone arms. But all Denon MC are in are a cut above in price and performance. The DL 103 has been around for some 50 years and it's still the classic MC that sets the standard. Enjoy

 

[kmp14]

A Denon AU-300LC step up transformer would be a perfect match with your Denon. No need for an EE degree. If it doesn't sound better than through the MC section, I'll eat my hat..

I use a Denon AU-300LC with my DL-103 and it sounds great.

 

[twoengine]

kmp14,

Please tell me how the Denon AU-300LC sounds compared to using an MC input on a phono preamp. Is the AU-300LC worth the cost? How does the AU-300LC compare to other SUT's?

 

[kahlfin1k]

Interesting question. I wonder how the two (SUP and MC phono stage) compare on paper, in general. I would guess it's easier (and cheaper) to get really low distortion and high bandwidth from a SS preamp than a transformer. That being said, I do like the idea of an all tube phono stage with a MC cart...

 

[kmp14]

kmp14,

Please tell me how the Denon AU-300LC sounds compared to using an MC input on a phono preamp. Is the AU-300LC worth the cost? How does the AU-300LC compare to other SUT's?

I have not tried my DL-103 on a MC input preamp. When I bought my DL-103 I did all the research on how it is best implemented (within budget). I can't recall how I decided on the Denon SUT and 103 combo, but it was probably a thread like this one:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=582979

I bought the 2 Denon pieces at the same time. I didn't try any other SUTs.
All I can say is that I find the combo to be very musical. High end is crisp but not harsh, mids are where they should be, and low end is tight. I run the Denon combo on a restored Marantz 6300, thru a Hagerman Bugle 2, into a McIntosh integrated and GoldenEar Triton Two speakers. I couldn't be happier with how it all sounds together.

 

[4-2-7]

kmp14,

Please tell me how the Denon AU-300LC sounds compared to using an MC input on a phono preamp. Is the AU-300LC worth the cost? How does the AU-300LC compare to other SUT's?

Let me just say, or give my oppinion.... you will get far to many oppinions on how to do something one the web.

Nobody here has your gear, ears, room or records.

Don't have anyone talk you into or out of anything and the best advice I can give you cost money. You have to start sampling components within your system and then you decide what sounds good.

If you buy Stages, Head Amps and SUT on the used market you should be able to resell them and get your money back if they are not right for you.

 

[Sprags]

As with anything audio the fewer components you have in the path from the source to speaker the better. I have a DL-110 that i've tried with my Yamaha CA-2010 with ists built-in MC preamp and also a Cambridge Audio phono preamp as part of my tube system and both sound great. I'd avoid a SUT if possible.

 

[bguzman]

I don't know the "right" answer but I do know what I like better in my room with my gear. I have a Sansui SR-4050c fitted with a Denon DL-103r with a refurbished Carver C-1 preamp. I have tried this TT connected directly to the MC input of the C-1 and through a Denon AU-320 SUT connected to the MM input of the C-1. They both sound fantastic but in my situation there is a lower noise floor when I use the SUT. I was lucky enough to stumble upon a SUT that was reasonably priced and in perfect shape. Music is more detailed when there is less noise and much more pleasing. Therefore if you can find one that hasn't been crazy priced I vote SUT.

 

[rothwellaudio]

Good MC amp will have lower hum and noise level than MM amp with SUP. This is a real fact. Another fact is that no one can make low noise MC phono preamp using conventional tubes, so it leaves one with solid state technology only. Any magnetic device in single chain adds way more distortion than capacitor. When people talk about eliminating capacitors in signal pass, why insist on inserting transformer? I know for sure some people like distorted sound, but why recommend it to someone else.

There are basically two types of noise that can plague turntables - hum and hiss.
With mc cartridges you can get lower hiss by using a step-up transformer than you can with transistors alone. Throughout the 1980s the electronics publications were full of circuits and articles about designing transistor mc headamps and phonostages with low noise, attempting to get a noise performance as good as with a transformer. It's extremely difficult - probably impossible without paralleling lots and lots of transistors. The lowest hiss is still achieved by using a transformer.
Hum is another matter. It's possible to get very low hum with solid state circuits quite easily, but transformers need to handled carefully. By using good transformers carefully sited away from stray magnetic fields (primarily large mains transformers) - and correctly wired - it is possible to get the hum down to extremely low levels.
Having said all that, the ultimate signal-to-noise ratio shouldn't be the goal above everything else. Shaving a dB or two off the noise probably won't make much difference if it is already way below vinyl's surface noise.

But back to the original question - my answer would be "yes", a good step-up transformer well-suited to the cartridge sounds better than a solid state mc phonostage. Of course, I have to declare an interest and my opinion may be biassed.

 

[for_p1]

There are basically two types of noise that can plague turntables - hum and hiss.
With mc cartridges you can get lower hiss by using a step-up transformer than you can with transistors alone. Throughout the 1980s the electronics publications were full of circuits and articles about designing transistor mc headamps and phonostages with low noise, attempting to get a noise performance as good as with a transformer. It's extremely difficult - probably impossible without paralleling lots and lots of transistors. The lowest hiss is still achieved by using a transformer.
Hum is another matter. It's possible to get very low hum with solid state circuits quite easily, but transformers need to handled carefully. By using good transformers carefully sited away from stray magnetic fields (primarily large mains transformers) - and correctly wired - it is possible to get the hum down to extremely low levels.
Having said all that, the ultimate signal-to-noise ratio shouldn't be the goal above everything else. Shaving a dB or two off the noise probably won't make much difference if it is already way below vinyl's surface noise.

But back to the original question - my answer would be "yes", a good step-up transformer well-suited to the cartridge sounds better than a solid state mc phonostage. Of course, I have to declare an interest and my opinion may be biassed.

You are right - one needs to parallel devices for best noise levels. General approach is use between 3 and 10 of them. Considering the cost it is still cheaper that adding SUT. At some point thermal noise in SUT itself gets higher simply due to higher resistance than in MC preamp frontend circuit. The only exception is when phono preamp cannot be placed close enough to TT. In that case having SUP right near the table allows longer interconnects to it. Other than that general approach today is either use SUT with tube phono preamp, or all solid state MC preamp. Either can provide noise level well below surface noise of LP itself. In my system noise floor jumps 20 dB up when needle touches vinyl surface - this is more that enough.

 

[stoutblock]

I like my SUT (Bob's devices) better than any MC preamp circuits I have tried. Just seems to leave nothing out and sounds well balanced and full. Yes it adds a very slight amount of hum but totally acceptable when listening to music.

 

[stoutblock]

Acceptable where?
For me hum is bum!
Full? Yes. SUTs do that. So does tube gear.
Probably for the same reason.
It ain't good in terms of hi-fi but I guess you know that already.

To me it is not about specs. If you want SNR then that is easy. Yes, I have tube phono stage, and tube line stage, however, I do use SS power amp. I like the musical experience I get with the SUT and this combination. There is a presence, space and fullness to the sound that I find more satisfying than a system that simply sounds clean. The hum I am talking about is only heard with my ears within 2' of the speaker during silent passages and it is not obvious. You have to want to hear it. I will also say there is a large variation in SUT quality. I went through three different SUTs before I settled on the Bob's devices.

 

[bguzman]

To me it is not about specs. If you want SNR then that is easy. Yes, I have tube phono stage, and tube line stage, however, I do use SS power amp. I like the musical experience I get with the SUT and this combination. There is a presence, space and fullness to the sound that I find more satisfying than a system that simply sounds clean. The hum I am talking about is only heard with my ears within 2' of the speaker during silent passages and it is not obvious. You have to want to hear it. I will also say there is a large variation in SUT quality. I went through three different SUTs before I settled on the Bob's devices.

What are your feelings about my particular SUT, Denon AU-320?