Wanting to get opinions

[JoeESP9]

My opinion is that different speakers would be the most logical choice. While Bose 201's aren't awful, IMO they could not be considered good. They're mediocre at best.

Please bear in mind that every part of most receivers was designed and built to a specific price point. There is a very good chance a modern phono preamp will outperform the built in one on just about any receiver.

FWIW: I am not now nor have I ever been a fan of receivers or Bose speakers.

 

[Elvis1118]

Elvis: Oops, I almost forgot: If your AT-PL120 is still equipped with the stock AT-P2 cart, I suggest to upgrade that with the ATXN5 needle - alias Pfanstiehl 205-DET, of which there currently appears to be one offered on Ebay for 45 bucks, which would be a fair price. That way you'd get a nice upgrade for not much money.


Greetings! No it does not have the stock cart. In fact i bought mine used and it didnt even have a cart because i knew i was.going to get.a better one regardless. I have a nakaoga mp110 and i love how it sounds
Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Elvis1118]

QFT ^^^^ x2...

Sometimes it helps to divorce the details for a bit and just work on figuring out what approach you want to use to acheive the desired goal.

Apparent desried goal = better sound.

Now which approach ???
Carefully dissect the signal chain and masterfully upgrade it with surgeon like precision.
Or just use a "scattergun" approach and blow the whole thing apart and rebuild from scratch.
Something inbetween those two,say using cost to dictate any improvements.
Then you gotta decide if you're gonna opt for a top down process -or- bottom up process in terms of budget.

Typically most folks will take a stand on one or two items and leave other areas as potential items for gains.
Example if I were commited to the Bose 201 speakers then the most logical improvement IME/IMO would be a nice subwoofer (or two).
I say that as that would be the most obvious area of weakness in terms of the systems sound reproduction abillity.
But should the speakers be fair game,then they are probably the weakest link.

Now phono preamps range from very affordable to crazy money,
So yeah if you wanted to explore that area there are no shortage of choices.
Same with regards to cartridges & styluses.

And some might even suggest the turntable itself as the weakest link,

And your playback preferences tend to get factored in as well.
Me I'd probably be using the tuner or an Aux. input more often than phono input.
I know I'd need to have a DAC in the system for sure as I'm mostly digital here.
So for guys like me that part of the signal chain (phono) would'nt be the highest priority.

For me:
I'd keep the Pioneer SX-3700 receiver for now > Hopefully it's "up to snuff" for the most part.
I'd keep the current turntable/cart/stylus for now too > It should do fine for the time being.
I'd lose the speakers > Lots of options there,and IMO these will make the most noticable change in the systems SQ.
I'd add a subwoofer > This one kinda hinges on what speakers are going to be used,for obvious reasons.
I would put a Schiit Loki in one tape loop.> I'm a tone control user,and this seems to be the current best option.
I'd get a nice DAC for the Aux input > A whole other rabbit hole to explore w/lots of options to choose from.
I'd explore my Cart/stylus options > Decide if sticking with MM -or- go MC.
And then I'd explore my phono pre options > Start with "bang for the buck" minded unit here.

Anyhow I digress,that's 'nuff for now.

Bret P.

Thank you for that lengthy response. Im sorry if how i phrased my question didnt come across clear, my question was more of trying to.find out if there's.an y truth to what ive seen in numerous videos/forums that an external preamp will always sound better than one thats built in to a turntable or reciever. quite frankly i know the speakers i have arent the best but they sound fine to me and im not 100% sure that investing in better speakers would be beneficial to me because i guess i just dont have the ears for it and what i mean by that is for example, my father has a pair of jbl L100 century speakers that wer e given to him and i know the y should sound way better than what i have and while i do notice a difference, to me its not a major one, not saying tha t there isnt or shouldnt be but me persoanlly im just not hearing it and his system is way better than mine. Btw love the born again thumnail, one of my personal favorite albums.

 

[JoeESP9]

If speakers sound that much alike to you don't waste your money on an external phono preamp.

FWIW: Bose 201's and JBL L-100's have a completely different sound. I could be drunk and stoned. I'd still hear the difference.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Thank you for that lengthy response. Im sorry if how i phrased my question didnt come across clear, my question was more of trying to.find out if there's.an y truth to what ive seen in numerous videos/forums that an external preamp will always sound better than one thats built in to a turntable or reciever. quite frankly i know the speakers i have arent the best but they sound fine to me and im not 100% sure that investing in better speakers would be beneficial to me because i guess i just dont have the ears for it and what i mean by that is for example, my father has a pair of jbl L100 century speakers that wer e given to him and i know the y should sound way better than what i have and while i do notice a difference, to me its not a major one, not saying tha t there isnt or shouldnt be but me persoanlly im just not hearing it and his system is way better than mine. Btw love the born again thumnail, one of my personal favorite albums.

First of all, the phono preamps built into most tables are bottom tier starter tables, better decks don't have them. So please don't lump the phono stages in receivers etc with them.

As already stated, you're much more likely to change the sound signature with a change in speakers, then cartridge. And as already stated the Bose speakers are rather pedestrian, and most likely the reason your father's JBL's don't seem light years better is speaker placement. Any great speaker can be made to sound like shite with very little effort.

It would help immensely if you could post pictures of both setups, maybe we can help your father get better results also.

 

[Elvis1118]

If speakers sound that much alike to you don't waste your money on an external phono preamp.

FWIW: Bose 201's and JBL L-100's have a completely different sound. I could be drunk and stoned. I'd still hear the difference.

Oh.i definitely hear a difference just.not a great one. If i was blind folded i could tell which was what but do i personally.hear a near 1,000 dollar difference? Cant say i do but like i said i know thats more on my hearing ability.

 

[JoeESP9]

If different speakers sound that close to you I can pretty much guarantee that changing your phono preamp will make even less of a difference. That's if you hear any difference at all.

Bose 201's are blah and dull sounding to me. JBL L-100's have always sounded to in your face for me.

 

[Elvis1118]

First of all, the phono preamps built into most tables are bottom tier started tables, better decks don't have them. So please don't lump the phono stages in receivers etc with them.

sorry wasnt trying to lump them.together, i know theres a massive difference between the two. The point i was trying to make was that in reference to what people were.telling me, that it doesnt matter whether the preamp is in the receiver or turntable that an external one will almost always sound better depending on the quality of it.

 

[JoeESP9]

Check post #27.

 

[ev13wt]

OP is actually looking for confirmation to buy a pre amp.

Speakers. You need speakers.
That preamp is totally wasted money and you know it. Ask for speaker advice. <3

 

[Grenadeslio]

sorry wasnt trying to lump them.together, i know theres a massive difference between the two. The point i was trying to make was that in reference to what people were.telling me, that it doesnt matter whether the preamp is in the receiver or turntable that an external one will almost always sound better depending on the quality of it.

Any response concerning the rest of my post you quoted?

As for the quality of phono stages in receivers etc. If talking modern bottom tier receivers that include one to jump on the vinyl resurgence bandwagon then most likely true. But when talking about receivers etc that were produced during vinyls heyday, well that's a totally different kettle of fish.

The phono stage in my Kenwood KA-7300 integrated amplifier is quite nice. But the one in my Carver C-16 preamp is much better, it should be, it's just a preamp and was considerably more expensive than the Kenny.

And sure, if you want to spend $$$ on a great phono stage it "should" be better, it's only dedicated job is just that. Now if wondering if a budget stand alone phono stage will be an improvement on either, just because? Well if you find one then send me the info because I want one.

 

[OMGCat!]

^^^He wrote the same thing I did, was just quicker on the draw.

sorry wasnt trying to lump them.together, i know theres a massive difference between the two. The point i was trying to make was that in reference to what people were.telling me, that it doesnt matter whether the preamp is in the receiver or turntable that an external one will almost always sound better depending on the quality of it.

This isn't necessarily true as receivers and integrated amps made back when vinyl was king, at the very least, put a bit of effort into the phono stages. Some put quite a bit of effort and hold up very well even now.
On the other hand, a good deal of the inexpensive external preamps you find today are made as cheaply as possible to enable a modern receiver (with no internal phono stage) or powered speakers the ability to play records . They are made to get the job done at a low price point and do just that.
These I doubt would best a decent "vintage" stage. Once you start spending a bit of money on an external stage you'll likely hear differences as long as your system is resolving enough.

 

[Elvis1118]

Any response concerning the rest of my post you quoted

I dont have any pictures of my fathers setup. I do have some of mine . I didnt take a picture of the right speaker because my dining room is in view and its a mess from doing work in there but i think the pictures provided give a good overview of what i have. I know its not ideal.but its what i have for now .

 

[lini]

Gl: Not all turntables with integrated phono stage are "bottom tier starter tables". For example, there were and are exceptions from T+A and the good, old Technics SL-10 at least featured an integrated MC pre-pre stage.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Grenadeslio]

I dont have any pictures of my fathers setup. I do have some of mine . I didnt take a picture of the right speaker because my dining room is in view and its a mess from doing work in there but i think the pictures provided give a good overview of what i have. I know its not ideal.but its what i have for now .

Perfect, and I'm sorry to say that setup will never provide high quality sound no matter the equipment. Guess what happens when you have speakers essentially in a cave, they sound like they're in a cave.

If that's the only place you have for them that's ok, we all have to live with compromise, just don't expect to get more out of what you're not able to put into it. Just relax, put on some tunalidge, listen to the music and don't worry about it.

If still wanting advice on how to improve the sound then we'll have to start rearranging things.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Gl: Not all turntables with integrated phono stage are "bottom tier starter tables". For example, there were and are exceptions from T+A and the good, old Technics SL-10 at least featured an integrated MC pre-pre stage.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Notice how I stated "most"?

"First of all, the phono preamps built into most tables are bottom tier starter tables"

 

[quiet]

I dont have any pictures of my fathers setup. I do have some of mine . I didnt take a picture of the right speaker because my dining room is in view and its a mess from doing work in there but i think the pictures provided give a good overview of what i have. I know its not ideal.but its what i have for now .

All the phono sections on my many receivers work well. But vary from worst to best according to my taste. And the best is very good. I believe it would cost a significant amount to make a worth while improvement over the best I have now. Like you I have to many other weak links in my setup. Unless your receiver is subpar it would be an unrealized improvement on your investment until you change speakers and the location as said. I do think you can get a different speaker that will make a big improvement if placed on top of the white units.
What I'm saying is your speakers are a show stopper and I don't know of any speaker that will work where you have them.
Short of that some headphones would be nice. And expanding ones music selections for testing usually brings some things to light.
Good luck.

 

[xero-D-hero]

I'm seeing some circular logic going on in the OP's comments.

He's questioning his receivers phono section because some other folks have said they suck.
So he comes here expecting to get some confirmation of that situation being the case.
But that's not exactly what's happening in this thread so far...
So now he's trying to defend those "other folks" POV here.

Word of advice > Believe nothing of what you are told by others,and only half of what you see (or hear) with your own eyes (or ears).

Sure there are cases where an external phono preamp is gonna sound better than the one in any given piece of equipment.
And on occasion the difference may even be considered significant.
But often enough that's not gonna be the case...

My point is on a $$$ for $$$ basis an external phono preamp is probably the last area I'd try to improve the sound in a rig like this.
I say that as I feel there are other areas that will improve sound way more significantly on a per $$$ spent basis.

A few observations vvvv .

Im sorry if how i phrased my question didnt come across clear, my question was more of trying to.find out if there's.an y truth to what ive seen in numerous videos/forums that an external preamp will always sound better than one thats built in to a turntable or reciever.

The great thing about any conspiracy theory is there's always a grain of truth in them.
Will they ALWAYS sound better,nope.
Might they occasionally sound better,yeah sure.
Might they OFTEN sound better,,,errr MAYBE...
See where this is going ???

quite frankly i know the speakers i have arent the best but they sound fine to me and im not 100% sure that investing in better speakers would be beneficial to me because i guess i just dont have the ears for it and what i mean by that is for example, my father has a pair of jbl L100 century speakers that wer e given to him and i know the y should sound way better than what i have and while i do notice a difference, to me its not a major one,

If speakers sound that much alike to you don't waste your money on an external phono preamp.

Oh.i definitely hear a difference just.not a great one. If i was blind folded i could tell which was what but do i personally.hear a near 1,000 dollar difference? Cant say i do but like i said i know thats more on my hearing ability.

If different speakers sound that close to you I can pretty much guarantee that changing your phono preamp will make even less of a difference. That's if you hear any difference at all.

Ditto JoeESP9 here all the way...

If the budget for the external phono preamp was supposed to be $1k my gawd man dont do it !!!
A $1k phono preamp would mean the receiver is now waaayyy out-classed by the phono preamp.
In that scennario the receiver wont be able to do justice to that sorta phono preamp.

sorry wasnt trying to lump them.together, i know theres a massive difference between the two. The point i was trying to make was that in reference to what people were.telling me, that it doesnt matter whether the preamp is in the receiver or turntable that an external one will almost always sound better depending on the quality of it.

This is where things went circular to me.

Will they ALWAYS sound better,nope.
Might they occasionally sound better,yeah sure.
Might they OFTEN sound better,,,errr MAYBE...
See where this is going ???

OP is actually looking for confirmation to buy a pre amp.

That's my take on this too.

And sure, if you want to spend $$$ on a great phono stage it "should" be better, it's only dedicated job is just that. Now if wondering if a budget stand alone phono stage will be an improvement on either, just because? Well if you find one then send me the info because I want one.

No way I'd go spending much for any phono preamp for a receiver,it's just throwing good money away once you get past a certain point.

Perfect, and I'm sorry to say that setup will never provide high quality sound no matter the equipment. Guess what happens when you have speakers essentially in a cave, they sound like they're in a cave.

If that's the only place you have for them that's ok, we all have to live with compromise, just don't expect to get more out of what you're not able to put into it. Just relax, put on some tunalidge, listen to the music and don't worry about it.

If still wanting advice on how to improve the sound then we'll have to start rearranging things.

Yeah,that speaker location is obviously now the biggest issue from my POV.

Here I'd invest in stands or some decent wall mounts at the minimum.

Anyhow,,,,enough from me,,,LOL...

Bret P.

 

[jrtrent]

Thank you for that lengthy response. Im sorry if how i phrased my question didnt come across clear, my question was more of trying to.find out if there's.an y truth to what ive seen in numerous videos/forums that an external preamp will always sound better than one thats built in to a turntable or reciever.

That hasn't been my experience. By audition, I found that a Grado phono stage sounded better with Grado cartridges than the phono stage built into my Linn preamp, but when I later had an Audio by Van Alstine preamp its built in phono section outperformed the Grado phono stage.

One thing I would consider in your situation is whether the Pioneer receiver you have now is going to be a long-term part of your audio system. To me, its age alone would say no, that it's going to be replaced sooner rather than later. If that's the case, it makes more sense to me to put whatever money you have budgeted for an external phono stage towards getting an amplifier that might be the heart of your system for the next decade or two. Once that's settled, then see if an external phono stage has performance advantages.

Alternatively, maybe you just like the idea of having a separate phono stage, one that might improve your sound now and that you can live with long-term no matter what receiver, integrated amp, or preamp/power amp combination eventually replaces your current receiver. When you're ready to buy that next amplifier, you won't need to consider its phono stage, and many good amplifiers either don't have a built-in phono section or it's an extra cost option that you could then forgo. My AVA preamp is getting along in years (about 15 years old now, I think), and when it dies I could see myself buying their Vision Q phono section to pair with a different preamp or integrated amplifier.

quite frankly i know the speakers i have arent the best but they sound fine to me and im not 100% sure that investing in better speakers would be beneficial to me because i guess i just dont have the ears for it . . .

I would say you also don't have the placement options for it. Every speaker design has placement recommendations; for example, Bose says that for best performance their speakers need space around the cabinets (a minimum of 12 inches; preferably 1.5-3 feet), but your pictures show the speakers rather boxed in on all sides. If they sound fine to you, that's great, but I wouldn't bother auditioning options unless, at some point, you're able to at least place the speakers you have in a more advantageous position. Maybe you're stuck with your current room arrangement for a while, I'm sure most of us have been in a similar bind, but optimizing the setup of your current components might be the quickest, and cheapest, route to better sound.

 

[lini]

Gl: I did notice your "most" - but to be honest, that sentence doesn't make much sense anyway.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini