What ever happened to the nice $500 British integrated?

[mrt2]

Way back in the mid 90s, the nice, modestly powered British integrated was a real value leader in high end audio. I recommended this to many people as a viable alternative to Dolby Pro Logic receivers that were ubiquitous at the big box electronics stores. Add a decent turntable or digital source, and some good bookshelf speakers and you had a system that gave you 90% of what the high end had to offer for under $1,500 retail.

I purchased an Arcam Delta 290 for $900, which though expensive for a basic 2 channel integrated, was Arcam's TOTL integrated at the time.

These days, it is hard to get a decent British integrated for under $1,500, with many going for $2,500 or more, and that is a really hard sell to financially strapped people whose incomes have not tripled or quadrupled in the lat 15 years.

 

[JohnVF]

For a while it was pretty easy to get a Musical Fidelity A-1 for about $1000. Given inflation, that's no so bad. NAD, Cambridge Audio have sort of stepped in, as well as the Chinese makers.

 

[mrt2]

For a while it was pretty easy to get a Musical Fidelity A-1 for about $1000. Given inflation, that's no so bad. NAD, Cambridge Audio have sort of stepped in, as well as the Chinese makers.

True, but you had NAD, Marantz and Rotel back in the 90s as well. So basically, the British manufacturers all went upmarket and left the decent mid price 2 channel market to the Chinese.

 

[Dr Tinear]

True, but you had NAD, Marantz and Rotel back in the 90s as well. So basically, the British manufacturers all went upmarket and left the decent mid price 2 channel market to the Chinese.

This state of affairs makes it very tough for those of us who are building systems on a budget but are dead set against buying or recommending crap from China. I guess there's always the used high-end market, though even that is starting to get thin as people upgrade their systems less frequently than they did when the economy was better.

 

[KeninDC]

Creek at about $1000?

 

[Mister Pig]

This Is An Interesting Thread.....

This state of affairs makes it very tough for those of us who are building systems on a budget but are dead set against buying or recommending crap from China. I guess there's always the used high-end market, though even that is starting to get thin as people upgrade their systems less frequently than they did when the economy was better.

There were many good British integrated amps out there. At one time I owned a Cyrus II, and got very nice sound out of it. Of course the small Creek amp set the standard for this price category it seems, but there were other nice ones out there. Believe Mistral was from that time period, and the Audio Innovation was a nice amp also.

dead set against buying or recommending crap from China.

Last year I would have agreed with this statement. However, I have had the chance to listen to a couple of pieces that really change my expectations. One is the KingRex integrated and pre-amplifier. This little chip amp sounds extremely good, and the pre-amp adds a level of performance that makes it a worthwhile addition. Not the most powerful of amps, but its refined and detailed. This might be the perfect answer for the cash strapped audio person.

I am listening to a 2a3 based amplifier from Arte Forma. Built in Taiwan by a group called Hans Lab. This thing is extremely well built with quality parts. James transformers, and Blackgate power supply caps for one thing. Assembly is extremely neat. Sound is great too. I could easily own this amp, and they are on my short list if I need to buy another amp.

I think there are some companies in the Far East that are interested in building high performance electronics. This may not be the general rule that is true. But with a bit of research, I think they can be found.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[cason]

It isn't British, but the Marantz PM5003 intigrated amp, 40watts, for $450. is getting some attention.
Also, the Cambridge Audio 650A, 75 watts, for $779.

 

[Dr Tinear]

It isn't British, but the Marantz PM5003 intigrated amp, 40watts, for $450. is getting some attention.
Also, the Cambridge Audio 650A, 75 watts, for $779.

Both made in China. Google Images is your friend; it doesn't take much searching to find back-panel photos of current audio components online, and the back panel is generally where the Made in China warning label can be found.

 

[Art K.]

Rega Brio 3 at $699 retail, can be had for $600-640, is the best of the current breed IMO. It has a very nice phono stage and is built in England.

 

[jimmytwos]

i think its a combination of inflation and general changes in the hifi industry as a whole. the majority of cheaper british amps are now made in china to keep costs down, cambridge audio for example, manage to design and build very good audio products but it is obviously far cheaper for them to design in the uk and build in china, this way they can undercut most other brands pricewise.

quite a few british audio manufacturers, who made excellent budget kit have dissapeared probably due to the fact that, at the time alot had a cottage industry image, flakey reliability and build. but also these amps which incidently also sounded good were probably underpriced in that the manufacturers had full order books, but didn't charge enough for their gear! these days the british designed and built amps are made to exacting standards, with most parts like transformers, casing and boards made in house which makes them more pricey, but none the less value for money depending on the way you look at it.

more recently, quite a few brit manufacturers are starting to focus on the higher end market, probably because thats where the money is as the budget market is saturated with hundreds of brands pushing budget gear. but there still are budget brit amps out there, even if some come via china.

the fact is that, where once it was the japanese who cornered the market, now the chinese are doing so which i think is a good thing, because it forces other brands to compete on price and spec which in the end is good for us as we get more choice at different price levels.
also i wonder how many smaller british brands are distributed in the us?

jim

 

[edd9000]

British made, british style or british brand?

$500 in 1990 is more like $750 now with inflation, and the collapse of the doller to $2 a ukp recently pushed alot of usa prices up. $800 for a rega p3 for example.

Not to mention the move in market to HT.

Im sure there are a few good integrateds around for $500-$750, just might not be made in the uk. (cambridge audio, nad etc)

 

[mrt2]

British made, british style or british brand?

$500 in 1990 is more like $750 now with inflation, and the collapse of the doller to $2 a ukp recently pushed alot of usa prices up. $800 for a rega p3 for example.

Not to mention the move in market to HT.

Im sure there are a few good integrateds around for $500-$750, just might not be made in the uk. (cambridge audio, nad etc)

Not talking 1990, but rather the 1990s. I clearly remember seeing products like the Arcam Alpha 5 plus and Alpha 6 for around $500. Heck, I think at one place, the sales guy offered me a discount if I bought the Arcam Alpha 1 cd player and Alpha 5 plus or Alpha 6. He offered to sell me both for $800, and that was in 1996.

Don't think inflation has been all that great, but even if it were, wages have been stagnant for the last decade.

RE: NAD, Cambridge - They had that stuff in the 90s, it was a little cheaper back then, maybe $300 for an NAD or Marantz.

RE: home theater, that already was happening in the 1990s. I was a big proponent though of quality 2 channel for about the same as mediocre home theater. I still use my 2 channel gear from the 90s, while most of the home theater gear is in landfills or selling for peanuts on Craigslist.

OK, maybe a few examples of entry level Brit Amps going for less then $1,000, but the thing is, that used to be the more expensive British products, now it is the entry level. I realize the dollar is weak and nothing to be done about it. I guess future mid priced stuff will have to be Chinese.

 

[edd9000]

Not talking 1990, but rather the 1990s. I clearly remember seeing products like the Arcam Alpha 5 plus and Alpha 6 for around $500. Heck, I think at one place, the sales guy offered me a discount if I bought the Arcam Alpha 1 cd player and Alpha 5 plus or Alpha 6. He offered to sell me both for $800, and that was in 1996.

Don't think inflation has been all that great, but even if it were, wages have been stagnant for the last decade.

RE: NAD, Cambridge - They had that stuff in the 90s, it was a little cheaper back then, maybe $300 for an NAD or Marantz.

RE: home theater, that already was happening in the 1990s. I was a big proponent though of quality 2 channel for about the same as mediocre home theater. I still use my 2 channel gear from the 90s, while most of the home theater gear is in landfills or selling for peanuts on Craigslist.

OK, maybe a few examples of entry level Brit Amps going for less then $1,000, but the thing is, that used to be the more expensive British products, now it is the entry level. I realize the dollar is weak and nothing to be done about it. I guess future mid priced stuff will have to be Chinese.

The arcam 6 was about the only one i remember back then, it was 260ukp or so, so given the current habit of doubling the price, plus inflation (wages are stagnent but cost of production has risen alot in the uk) you get about $700 in todays money.

Looking at hifi worlds website, the magazine i used to read, which lists things going back to 95 or so, there realy wasnt much to choose from that was british made under 300ukp, the brio is available at $700 even now, so it seems in line with my thinking.

 

[edd9000]

RE: NAD, Cambridge - They had that stuff in the 90s, it was a little cheaper back then, maybe $300 for an NAD or Marantz.

RE: home theater, that already was happening in the 1990s. I was a big proponent though of quality 2 channel for about the same as mediocre home theater. I still use my 2 channel gear from the 90s, while most of the home theater gear is in landfills or selling for peanuts on Craigslist.

Missed your edit, HT did not get going in the uk untill dvd 98 or so. Laser disc never took off, and surround sound realy wasnt common in stores until HTIB was around. Untill then, hifi was still strongly marketed and available, magazines like what hifi were almost completely stereo focused, and stores like richer sounds only sold stereos.

 

[redcoates7]

The biggest change in CE spending since then has to be the increased penetration of video products into average consumer's homes. If you've got a DVD and a widescreen TV (which they've had in Europe for years...long before HDTV) you're much more likely to go for a Home Cinema Receiver with all the bells and whistles than a stripped down audiophile integrated. (maybe you and I wouldn't but something tells me there aren't a lot of average consumers on AK!)

So take that softening demand and couple it with the increased cost of doing business in the UK, and a VERY different exchange rate, and your $500 integrated is $1000 15 years later

As for some of the Chinese built gear, if you keep politics out of it (which we're all supposed to do on AK, right?) and look at the equipment solely on its merits, there's some very good sounding, very well put-together gear coming from over there...the Marantz mentioned previously is a great example.


If you're careful you can still put together a great system for under $2k...in fact, I think you put together something way better sounding and much easier to use thatn you could have for the same adjusted dollar amount in 1995...

 

[mrt2]

The arcam 6 was about the only one i remember back then, it was 260ukp or so, so given the current habit of doubling the price, plus inflation (wages are stagnent but cost of production has risen alot in the uk) you get about $700 in todays money.

.

That must be the one I remember. I almost took that package deal, but decided to put all the money towards a Delta 290, and put off the purchase of a new cd player for another time.

 

[Art K.]

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/rega_brio.htm

 

[mrt2]

The biggest change in CE spending since then has to be the increased penetration of video products into average consumer's homes. If you've got a DVD and a widescreen TV (which they've had in Europe for years...long before HDTV) you're much more likely to go for a Home Cinema Receiver with all the bells and whistles than a stripped down audiophile integrated. (maybe you and I wouldn't but something tells me there aren't a lot of average consumers on AK!)

So take that softening demand and couple it with the increased cost of doing business in the UK, and a VERY different exchange rate, and your $500 integrated is $1000 15 years later

As for some of the Chinese built gear, if you keep politics out of it (which we're all supposed to do on AK, right?) and look at the equipment solely on its merits, there's some very good sounding, very well put-together gear coming from over there...the Marantz mentioned previously is a great example.


If you're careful you can still put together a great system for under $2k...in fact, I think you put together something way better sounding and much easier to use thatn you could have for the same adjusted dollar amount in 1995...

Certainly a plausible explanation of what happened. You might be right in terms of getting comparable quality, though Asian made, for less than $2k. Maybe in addition to the Marantz, the Outlaw Audio receiver?

RE: home theater, I suppose you are right, and maybe it is just me, but I still know a lot of people who really don't have much of a need for 5.1 home theater. In my TV room, I don't even know how I would set up 5 decent speakers plus a subwoofer, as it is an odd shaped room. 2 speakers, different story.

 

[mrt2]

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/rega_brio.htm

Kudos to Rega for offering an entry level product at least in the ballpark of $500.

 

[edd9000]

Emotiva has a stereo pre for $350, plus one of thier 2 channel amps for $250 and you have what looks to be a very nice set for $600.