What Makes a Great Sounding Turntable?

I am not a physicist or a degreed engineer, but I have been around high end metalworking equipment for 30 years. The torque thing makes perfect sense to me. A massive platter has much greater inertia which leads to ease of maintaining stable speed. A higher torque motor is needed to reach and sustain this speed on the heavier platter.
As far as tolerances go, sustaining tighter tolerances in machined parts can get very expensive, especially if done in small runs. There's that economy of scale thing again. It makes me wonder how consistent and valid the specs of the mass produced decks really are. Do any of the numbers come from independent sources or are they strictly from the manufacturers' literature? If they were independent were the specimens tested chosen by the manufacturers or were they purchased retail. I am not trying to be contrary here, I would love to know if anyone has the answers to these questions.
 
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Do any of the numbers come from independent sources or are they strictly from the manufacturers' literature?

I'd think that in thirty some years of production, a reviewer or competitor would have called Technics on the carpet if they didn't meet their published specs. That's the hazard of making measurable claims.

It's actually easier to make precision objects in quantity. Look at camera lenses. Canon has somewhere an astonishing set of videos showing he production and assembly of their professional lenses.
 
I'd think that in thirty some years of production, a reviewer or competitor would have called Technics on the carpet if they didn't meet their published specs. That's the hazard of making measurable claims.

It's actually easier to make precision objects in quantity. Look at camera lenses. Canon has somewhere an astonishing set of videos showing he production and assembly of their professional lenses.

I wasn't bashing Technics here. I never mentioned any brand at all. I was asking a question. Golly, I own a Technics DD turntable.

You said it is easier to make precision objects in quantity. I said that sustaining tighter tolerances in small runs gets expensive. It looks to me like we are stating the same thing there. I just used more words.:D

It seems like you came here for an argument. John happened by and provided one and an entertaining one at that.:thmbsp:
 
It seems like you came here for an argument

I started the thread in Thinking Out Loud. That would be a clue that I knew the subject was controversial. If I thought there would be an easy answer I would have posted it Turntables.

But I ask a serious question: why is it so hard to agree on what makes a turntable good? Unlike speakers, turntables approach perfection. Any deviation from perfection should be measurable.

With speakers there are reasons why someone might prefer a rolled off high end, or prefer narrow or wide dispersion. With a turntable, any speed variation or noise is a defect, not a matter of taste.
 
Be sure the expensive tables are expensive to make. 10, 20, 70k pieces of sculpture.

The tolerences involved would be listening room conversation(maybe) and don't need to be printed.

With the Canon lenses, you can see what modern tech can do for consumer gear. They still have the very expensive line : )
 
Be sure the expensive tables are expensive to make. 10, 20, 70k pieces of sculpture.

The tolerences involved would be listening room conversation(maybe) and don't need to be printed.

With the Canon lenses, you can see what modern tech can do for consumer gear. They still have the very expensive line : )

There are some guys putting Panavision lenses on Canon Consumer digital bodies and shooting professional video with them. This would seem a cheap way to get greatness, right?

Well, those lenses cost probably $45,000.
 
Well, Canon isn't pouring glass out in the middle of a lake to prevent vibrations as Zeiss used to do
 
Here's a list of some record companies using the Technics SP-02 motor.

http://www.recordtech.com/customers.htm

http://www.recordtech.com/atmweb/atmequipment.htm

I think you've got the two companies confused, RTI is a pressing plant, acoustech is one of the list of mastering houses they recommend for having your lacquer cut. If you've ever browsed through an acoustic sounds magazine, you know they make a fairly big deal out of their DMM lathe and the records that were cut on it. Not a lot are, but I've got a few and they are fantastic, but pricey. Still, at the end of the day, if you think that warner bros back to black album you buy for 20 was mastered at acoustech, I've got a bridge to sell you. The SP02 is a well regraded motor, but it's not in very many lathes, ~1000neumann lathes out there, ~30DMM lathes, and that ignores all the scully lathes and some of the oddball makes out there still cutting laquers.

I can see where it is fun to say that the most of the vinyl you're listening to was cut on a lathe using a technics motor, but it's not now, nor has it ever been. Likewise, it's fun to say that the 1200 motor is akin to the SP02, but it just doesn't match specs that you've argued define a turntable. The torque (13in/lbs vs 1.3in/lbs), the W&F(0.015% vs. 0.025%) and rumble (-92db vs -78db).

If you think the specs are really what matters in a good sounding TT, I don't see how you can logically argue that some vinyl was mastered on a lathe with a motor like the one in your 1200. If you really want a 1st cousin to the SP02, don't let kevin blow any more smoke your way and purchase a SP10mkIII, but beware, it's going to cost a bit more than a 1200.

BTW, I did some looking, and back in the day technics sold an SP10mk3 in a massive obsidian plinth with an outboard power supply. Why do you think they put it in a plinth made of rock, and why the outboard power supply?
 
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Whether you want to believe it or not - the sl 1200 roots are from the SP series. I'm not going to defend Kevin as he certainly doesn't need any defending - I'll say this - he is a very straight forward person and doesn't force the hard sell. Nuf said on that subject.


Back to the original post - what makes a great sounding table?

Spot on pitch control - no wavering - nice thing about Technics - its in your face with a strobe on all tables. My old sl200 was all over the place after 30 years - strobe was there to show that - not that I needed it - the songs were slurring - I fixed that issue...

Low noise floor - the upgrade to the M5G from my sl200 was quite a shocker - definite improvement - silent background - no background noise of any kind. An obvious "replace this table with this other table" and notice something - a big improvement - something we all seek out when we upgrade a component - different is always good.

Those are the two major qualities that I feel are important to make for a great sounding table - I feel that cartridge now has a solid platform.

I'm certainly still open to experiences beyond what I currently have with higher end tables (I'm back into this sick hobby after a 20 year break) - experiences of the likes that John/CMB have mentioned - I'm not there yet - but I feel I have a good place to start from. I can possibly see a VPI classic, Rega P7/P9 or something from Sota, Clearaudio in my distant future (after I spend a couple of years trying different tube gear first.) Who knows perhaps I'll go way vintage - someone posted a really cool Reko-Kut that blew me away looks wise - I've never heard one - wow isn't this the greatest hobby?

Thanks,
 
... Back to the original post - what makes a great sounding table?

Spot on pitch control - no wavering - nice thing about Technics - its in your face with a strobe on all tables. My old sl200 was all over the place after 30 years - strobe was there to show that - not that I needed it - the songs were slurring - I fixed that issue...

That's one of my top priorities, too, and I see it as shameful that so many modern belt-drive turntables don't nail this fundamental issue. Accurate and stable speed was a solved engineering problem forty-plus years ago in turntables from Empire, Rek-O-Kut, Thorens, AR and many others. Technics chose a different solution in the SL-1200's direct drive system and delivered results.

FWIW, I heard the beginnings of pitch waver on my SL-230 last year and confirmed the problem on the strobe. A new, higher-quality belt from KAB took care of the problem.

Low noise floor - the upgrade to the M5G from my sl200 was quite a shocker - definite improvement - silent background - no background noise of any kind. An obvious "replace this table with this other table" and notice something - a big improvement - something we all seek out when we upgrade a component - different is always good.

Those are the two major qualities that I feel are important to make for a great sounding table - I feel that cartridge now has a solid platform.

Resonance control is important as well. I've seen plots of the SL-1200 arm's resonant behavior that suggest that it could use some added damping. Have you tried any of the recommended resonance treatments on the arm?

I'm certainly still open to experiences beyond what I currently have with higher end tables (I'm back into this sick hobby after a 20 year break) - experiences of the likes that John/CMB have mentioned - I'm not there yet - but I feel I have a good place to start from. I can possibly see a VPI classic, Rega P7/P9 or something from Sota, Clearaudio in my distant future (after I spend a couple of years trying different tube gear first.) Who knows perhaps I'll go way vintage - someone posted a really cool Reko-Kut that blew me away looks wise - I've never heard one - wow isn't this the greatest hobby?

Thanks,
 
Whether you want to believe it or not - the sl 1200 roots are from the SP series. I'm not going to defend Kevin as he certainly doesn't need any defending - I'll say this - he is a very straight forward person and doesn't force the hard sell. Nuf said on that subject.

The v8 in my neighbors ford pickup has it's roots in ford autoracing, it's still not a race motor, they are built for very different applications, and are as different as night and day when you look at the... specs:D.

Back to the op, I would argue that vibration and resonance control is two of the factors that define how a turntable sounds, you can either build it light and dissipate the energy quickly, you can build it heavy and absorb it, or you can build a suspension system to absorb and reject certain vibration. Likewise, rigidity of build also plays a role, how rigid can you couple the tonearm to the plinth, and how rigid can you make the tonearm without allowing for resonance in the audio band. What material do you make your platter out of, is it metal which is hard and rigid but can resonate at certain frequencies, or is it glass that resonates at other frequencies, or do with go with MDF or Acrylic which are not at hard, but less prone to resonance and ringing. Heck, what mat you choose to place on the platter can make a world of difference, felt is different from rubber, is different from cork, is different from no mat.

All of these things make an audible difference, none of them affect rumble, W&F, or the other specification engineers have adopted to describe their product.
 
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and why the outboard power supply?

I've got another thread started in Turntables that might answer that question.

It's called Visualizing My Turntable Noise. I don't think it's controversial.

As far as I can tell the transformer vibration moves the noise floor up (or down) by nearly 20 dB. It's still close to 50 dB, but moving it outboard seems like a useful (and available and inexpensive) mod.

What I did was fairly simple and doesn't cost anything. (You can get suitable software free.)
 
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Resonance control is important as well. I've seen plots of the SL-1200 arm's resonant behavior that suggest that it could use some added damping. Have you tried any of the recommended resonance treatments on the arm?

I tried KAB's quick and dirty resonance revealer (tapping on the tone arm). For my next trick I'm going to try some quick and dirty mods, namely O-rings.

I'll record the results and capture screen shots.
 
The v8 in my neighbors ford pickup has it's roots in ford autoracing, it's still not a race motor, they are built for very different applications, and are as different as night and day when you look at the... specs:D.

Your wanna those gotta have the last word guys aren't you. I know some guys that build very nice race motors out of street nissan/datsun engines - your point though is lost on me -- 'roots in' isn't the same as 'they are the same'. Take the last word - I've made my point.

Thanks,
 
Thinking about this after some sleep and waking up in a better mood, I don't think we're all in as much disagreement as it seems. What makes a good turntable? We all seem to be saying that its accurate speed, low noise floor, and resonance control. I think where we differ is in how accurately the specs show what's going on with those problems.

A lot of modern turntables (and some very nice vintage ones, even DD...I'm speaking of the likes of the Kenwood L-07 as an example, or the Yamaha GT-2000, or Sony PS-x9) go to extreme lengths to solve these problems BEYOND what looks acceptable on the spec sheet. And to many listeners, its readily apparent that it makes a difference. This isn't an argument of new vs. old, its an argument for overbuilding and over-solving the problems that already look to be solved by specs (when they actually aren't IMHO).

The SL-1200 is very accurate for speed when measured according to the specs, and also in general when listening. Is it enough? Well, look at the GT-2000. It is DD, but the engineers didn't think that was enough. It also has a massive platter, which would help in resonance control and also give a flywheel affect, which would help power through transients and add an immediacy to the sound (the kind of thing the idler fans speak of, and which I found the Empires to also have). Like it or not, the Quartz lock isn't fast enough to react to a transient. You simply have to not slow down for it to sound 'fast', and that means either the torque of an idler or a very big platter with momentum behind it. There's no spec for that, but its a very simple thing to solve..but not simple to solve cheaply. Gigantic machined platters are not cheap, and they are not found on the average consumer grade turntable. If you look at the AR-xa, the platter really isn't that substantial. Follow the design through the TD-150, Ariston and Linn Sondek and you'll notice the platter gets bigger. That isn't on some whim of the design team. That's speed stability being handled outside of the average of the RPM spec.

Vibration and resonance control are also among the things that makes a great turntable. If you look at a lot of modern turntables, the motor is only attached to the platter via the belt (and the surface they sit on). That's a very simple, non-voodoo way, to solve a problem. But it adds another...now the motor is loose from the platter. The more expensive way to solve this is to make the motor housing much heavier and bigger, so it doesn't move in relation to the platter. The bigger the platter, the bigger the motor, and the bigger the housing, and the bigger the cost. My Marantz TT-15si has a separate motor, and my big gripe about that turntable is the motor housing is too small and too light. It can move in relation to the platter, and torgue and speed suffer. So why do I run this table instead of the SL-1210? Because the other solutions that make a great table are handled better in the marantz. The entire thing is anti-resonant, its made of acrylic. The arm is exceptionally well made, and tracks better than the arm on the 1200. It also is lighter and supports the carts I want to run on that table, and to my ears the main bearing is more quiet..the table has an overal 'blacker' background to the sound than the 1200. Do these things show up in the specs? Not really.

It's no accident that the most highly regarded turntables through the history of the format are beasts. Even the SL-1200 is pretty heavy. It's good enough for a lot of people, and its good enough for the specs. But engineers didn't stop there and I'm glad they didn't. I'd love to own one of those old giant DD beasts, for what its worth. A friend has an L-07 but still thinks his Sota Sapphire sounds better, for what its worth. I almost guarantee the L-07 has better specs..but the hobby is about listening, and that's where a lot of us make the call.
 
Who knows perhaps I'll go way vintage - someone posted a really cool Reko-Kut that blew me away looks wise - I've never heard one - wow isn't this the greatest hobby?

Thanks,

A friend of mine has a Reko-Kut Rondine Deluxe. There's audible rumble and its not the most subtle at detail retrieval...it would probably not spec out too fantastically..yet it is one of the most enjoyable turntables to listen to that I have ever heard. Which is to say, again, that there's no spec for musicality. But ultimately if there were, it would be the only spec I looked at.
 
It also is lighter and supports the carts I want to run on that table, and to my ears the main bearing is more quiet
.

I can't really disagree with anyone who favors a specific tonearm and has a good reason.

I don't know what to make of the claim regarding bearing noise. I just went to the trouble of actually measuring noise on my TT. It isn't definitive or exhaustive, but at least I have started to put actual numbers to some of the claims.

And right off the bat I found a simple design flaw in the 1200. Something I might be able to improve without money. They didn't physically isolate the power transformer, at least not as well as it could be. Apparently they fixed this in some later models.

For the record, the S/N as is, is about as good as some high priced machines.

Next I'm going to look at tonearm resonance and see if any of the AK tweaks help.
 
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