What's Up With The Price of High End Carts?

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Karma 16, IMO anyone who flames you for spending three grand on a phono cartridge is jealous and resentful. As you've seen, no one here has done it, and I wouldn't expect them to either.

However, I admit to being a little jealous about the Skala because I really lust after that cartridge. :) I can't afford it now, but I can pretty much guarantee some day I will own a $3000 cartridge. As of now I've made it up to the ~$1k tier, and it's simply amazing, worth every cent IMO.

People on AK will by and large understand why one would spend thousands of dollars on a phono cartridge whether or not they could or would ever do it, but to a non-audiophile it's total insanity. They don't understand that it's not about having the biggest and the best (shouldn't be at least), it's not about "impressive sound," it's about a love of music, and being able to experience music on an ever higher emotional level, and in new ways.
 
Mr. Lin said:
Karma 16, IMO anyone who flames you for spending three grand on a phono cartridge is jealous and resentful. As you've seen, no one here has done it, and I wouldn't expect them to either.

However, I admit to being a little jealous about the Skala because I really lust after that cartridge. :) I can't afford it now, but I can pretty much guarantee some day I will own a $3000 cartridge. As of now I've made it up to the ~$1k tier, and it's simply amazing, worth every cent IMO.

People on AK will by and large understand why one would spend thousands of dollars on a phono cartridge whether or not they could or would ever do it, but to a non-audiophile it's total insanity. They don't understand that it's not about having the biggest and the best (shouldn't be at least), it's not about "impressive sound," it's about a love of music, and being able to experience music on an ever higher emotional level, and in new ways.
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I'm referring to your last sentence by saying, that there also exists people that are consciously trying to avoid evaluating audio equipment on emotional basis, since they acknowledge that their preference might be based on delusion and bias.

But I can't say, would I throw out this kind of an idealism if I would have more loose money to spend on hobbies such as audio. It is perhaps people with less wealth who tend to base their purchases on measurable quantities more preferably than for example qualities, such as experiencing music at a higher emotional level because of knowing that the update acquired is more expensive than the one it replaced?

Nevertheless, people should respect decision of both extreme ends, I was just keen to bring up my personal (poor man's) view of this matter :)

My view might be purely because ignorance of a vinyl newcomer, so I might as well ask, what are the measurable quantities when comparing performance of a cartridge? Is there some universal objective or goal in cartridge design? I can't think of other than frequency response?
 
I would not aim at less than $700 cartridges.
I am at the point where > ~ $ 2000 cartridges seems to give me the best compromise between sound quality and budget.

"dolph"
 
Jone said:
Is there some universal objective or goal in cartridge design? I can't think of other than frequency response?
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Yes. To have it sound better.

Trite but that's what it's about.

In general, I've found that as you spend more money in audio it's not about hearing your gear sound better, its about not hearing your gear at all. And the more expensive carts I've heard allow me to more easily forget that they are there.
 
shelly_d said:
Shoot - I can't come up with the $60~$70 I need for a new stylus for my 2nd cart (in 2nd turntable) so I move the one I have between the two. (Picked up the 2nd TT with cart at a swap meet for $10.)

Year - I'm that kind of guy - fanatic but CHEAP!

Shelly_D
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Me too, in a way. I've got a Benz Reference II retipped by Soundsmith, a Dynavector DV 20X, and an old van Den Hul Super One. I bought the Benz new at full price, but didn't pay much for the other two. I would like to use something better, but can't quite push the button.
 
Audio has been my hobby since 1972 and I’ve seen a lot of fads, quasi innovations, and audio companies come and go. For the most part I’ve jettisoned the blanket notion that it’s better if it costs more and question the allure of brand name mystique and cache. The system I use today is 6 or 7 times less expensive than some I’ve owned in the past. It actually sounds much better than any system I’ve owned too. I’m a big fan of cost effectiveness and value.
My opinion is that some of these high end cartridges are indeed works of art. But that artistry does not usually translate to improvement in sound.
 
I've found that I can be very satisfied with a budget cartridge, even the $32 AT CN5625AL I'm using now, when it's mounted to a good arm and 'table. I originally bought an LP12 with Basik Plus arm, then later upgraded to an Ittok, because I heard that combination with a Basik cartridge (inexpensive, conical, AT variant) outperform every other turntable I had access to audition no matter how expensive a cartridge they mounted on it. I'm satisfied with this level of performance, but if I wanted more, I've learned from demonstration that my money would be better spent on a Lingo or Keel upgrade, not a high-priced cartridge, and the Keel or Lingo would give me that performance upgrade for many years with a one-time purchase, not something I need to replace at great expense every year or so (whenever the stylus wears out).
 
pioneervato said:
Hey Mark, I believe the 1968 Triumph Bonneville that is mentioned is a motorcycle and not a car. :D
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Boy, am I a dummy. But, I will take the British Motorcycle too:D I was probably thinking Triumph Spitfire or TR6.
 
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I Was Wrong And An Audio Essay

HI All,
May I say that I'm extremely proud to be a member of this fine forum. While my hi fi interests are a little different than the average here, the spunk, vitality, and intelligence of the members (most) are fun which makes this my favorite audio forum.

If you look at all the posts in this thread before my first one (post # 17), you will see that super expensive cartridges were getting zero respect or understanding from those posters. This accounts for my opening remarks concerning being called stupid and also for my closing remark about being flamed. I felt I was entering the lion’s den with my first post.

Well, I was wrong. Your response to me buying a $3500 cartridge has largely been fair, balanced and respectful. Thank you!!! You make me proud.

Many of you have very little experience with hi fi and especially vinyl. Many folks are not old enough to have accumulated the resources to be able to invest in fine audio equipment. I understand this. I also know that others have different priorities than mine. I understand this. I know that some are just not seriously into great sound and never will be. I understand this. And, finally, I know that some folks are just cheap and always will be. This too I understand and respect though I question their priorities.

It's true that I have been into audio for a long time. I have had many systems; some good and some average. I have been through financial hard times and good. I am old enough to have my priorities totally under control and to have the financial resources to indulge my hi fi needs. And having been into audio for so long (I built my first hi fi amp in 1954) and so intensely, I have an unusual perspective. I have owned and run two different high end repair shops for a total of 14 years. I have been an audio consultant for several high end stores. I have known and listened with many of the primary equipment reviewers for Stereophile when the magazine was still in Santa Fe. I have heard many good systems. I have lived with high end systems for many years and will not settle for less. And, most importantly, I have heard many great music collections.

I love music. I love all kinds of music. I have a large record collection that I pamper like I would a child. I also love sound. Just raw sound. The sound of a thunderstorm, the impact of the thunder and the delicate splash of the rain drops hitting the ground; the sound of ferry boats as they clunk into the dock, the gruffness of their horns; the sound of steam locomotives as they chug up a mountain grade hissing steam; the soul and gut wrenching bass of a 16 Hz note from a great pipe organ. The window into all of this is a great hi fi system. And I have it.

It is this perspective that I try and feel obligated to give to this forum. I will always try to make people see what I know. I will always encourage people to spend more money for better sound. I will always speak up against the cheap ones that disparage others who are building towards greatness. I will never be afraid to speak my mind and, I promise, I will always be honest.

So, there it is. Sparky Shaver, the audio fanatic and fellow Audio Karma member. I make no apologies.

Sparky
 
I had a loaner Koetsu Black on a Technics SL-1200 with the SUT. I loved it. It was revelatory. But handmade in Japan. But I am still happy with my lesser cartridges available to me. That Audio-Technica conical cheapie appeals to me to experiment with since I have an ideal tonearm to mount it in.
 
What makes this whole "audio" thing fun and interesting is what we "make it to be", regardless of what equipment we have or can afford. I have some pretty expensive photography equipment but it is because I choose to go that route and yet I know it is not the "be all and end all" for me or others.

We are such a diverse group here and I like to read about other's experiences and it is the reason why I have learned so much about audio and music since joining AK four years ago. My system and music collection has grown by leaps and bounds but I always like to think about how I can improve my system without breaking the bank.

Interesting comments all around, folks.
 
As has been said, one would have to have an equivalent system to benefit fully from carts in this level. If I was one to spend $65G on a pair of speakers, $90G on an amp, and $45G on a table, then $10G for a cart is a bargin. For some I know, just being able to say they spent that kind of money on something is more than worth the price tag. I knew a fellow who drove a different sports car every weekend, had a warehouse full of them, never worked on one or touched them other than to drive them. Seemed his main goal was to get people to ask how much, and he would brag about 250G 100G his 500G Ferrari, etc.
For me personally I would much rather brag about the $1G speakers I got for $19.99 at salvation army. More money that sense in some cases. I assure you I get more pleasure, and appreciate every tone, every voice emanating from my speakers vastly more than my friend ever got from his entire collection.
 
I can imagine having a better job and saving up to by a five-figure amp or turntable or etc. I doubt I ever will (inflation disregarded) because luxury items start feel a little obscene to me at that level, but I might. I would certainly spend that much on speakers if I could afford it. However, five figures for something I have to replace every freaking year? That's never going to happen. Whether it brings the goods in the sound quality department is irrelevant to me.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
I had a loaner Koetsu Black on a Technics SL-1200 with the SUT. I loved it. It was revelatory. But handmade in Japan. But I am still happy with my lesser cartridges available to me. That Audio-Technica conical cheapie appeals to me to experiment with since I have an ideal tonearm to mount it in.
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Heck, that is the bottom of the Koetsu line, you can order one for $1800. That's almost reasonable nowadays.
 
Shackman55 said:
..............For me personally I would much rather brag about the $1G speakers I got for $19.99 at salvation army. More money that sense in some cases. I assure you I get more pleasure, and appreciate every tone, every voice emanating from my speakers vastly more than my friend ever got from his entire collection.
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HI Shack,
And your point is? That you love bad sound? Hmmmmm.

Sparky
 
You know what I love about HiFi is that even if you got a team of audio experts, with an unlimited budget, to put together the be all and end all of systems in a room specially built for the purpose.

It wouldn't be long before someone said if we do this it will improve the sound and it probably would.

It is a never ending road to audio nirvana with many stops on the way.

No one will ever get there and everyone is on the same road, just some choose how far they want to travel!
 
Shackman55 said:
As has been said, one would have to have an equivalent system to benefit fully from carts in this level. If I was one to spend $65G on a pair of speakers, $90G on an amp, and $45G on a table, then $10G for a cart is a bargin. For some I know, just being able to say they spent that kind of money on something is more than worth the price tag. I knew a fellow who drove a different sports car every weekend, had a warehouse full of them, never worked on one or touched them other than to drive them. Seemed his main goal was to get people to ask how much, and he would brag about 250G 100G his 500G Ferrari, etc.
For me personally I would much rather brag about the $1G speakers I got for $19.99 at salvation army. More money that sense in some cases. I assure you I get more pleasure, and appreciate every tone, every voice emanating from my speakers vastly more than my friend ever got from his entire collection.
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it sounds like you think that everybody with money is a shallow asshole and that is just not the case. It's been my experience that wealthy people have just about the same jerk to nice ratio as any other economic class, and to assume that they all buy gear to rub it in other's faces is really misinformed. I know a lot of very wealthy people who you'd have no idea how much money they have by looking at them or even hanging out with them. Sure, there are some people in audio who seem to need some sort of vindication through expensive gear, but it's no different than those who need some sort of vindication for how thrifty they've been.

In the middle are a bunch of folks who buy whatever level of gear they feel they need and can afford. For some people, a very expensive cartridge is what brings them joy. And I can tell you from my own experience, if you're trying to impress people with your fancy audio gear you won't find much of an audience outside of yourself. Most people just don't care, and most would have no idea that a cart could cost so much. It's a very personal choice to spend that much on a cart...and a very poor way to brag because very few would even care.
 
Karma16 said:
HI Shack,
And your point is? That you love bad sound? Hmmmmm.

Sparky
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how can you possibly know or equate the sound that someone enjoys with a cheaper than normal price tag?

The most marked jaw drop difference for me was when I bought some drivers & built some speakers, but upgrading carts has only ever brought a marginal improvement.
 
JohnVF said:
I can honestly say that I hope I never get to a point where the last few percentages above what I have (also a Benz) is worth that much to me. I've heard $10k carts and thought they sounded great but I also think what I have sounds great and I'm happy not doing a side by side (perhaps happy in my ignorance). If somebody wants to go there? Awesome for them. Me? These days I'd rather travel.

I didn't get to spend enough time with the really really expensive cart and phono stage to really know whether or not it was a lot better. My initial reaction was that it was fantastic but didn't redefine what I thought was possible. But again, it was only about an hour's exposure.
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For me it is not worth spending tens of thousands of dollars to get that last 2% of sonic magic. I'm perfectly happy getting 90%. Even at that extreme price level, there are going to be shortcomings...they will just be more subtle. There simply is no perfect cartridge, regardless of the price.
 
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