When is a phono preamp an upgrade?

that70sguy

that70sguy

Well-Known Member
Hello all,

I haven't been on this forum in quite a while. I'm currently dusting off my records and getting back into listiening to vinyl after a few years absence. I recently purchased a Rega RP1 turntable and was always curious about the advantages of a phono preamp. Amps/preamps/receivers I will currently be using all have built-in phono stages, but wanted to know if adding a phono preamp would be an advantage sonically.

I currently have a Yamaha CX-2000 preamp, a Kenwood KA-9100 integrated amp and a Yamaha CR-1020 receiver.

I would appreciate your thoughts on whether adding a phono preamp would be helpful or would I just be wasting my money.
If a phono preamp is suggested, what models would you recommend?
Thanks in advance! BTW, this forum has been a tremendous help to me over the years! AK is the best!

Jay
 
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It all depends on how demanding you are in terms of what you hear.....you have some nice stuff there, and the Rega probably fits well into the genre of the other stuff. I am not aware of what cartridge you are using, but would imagine something in that general cohort....moving magnet of some sort? So, plug it in and let it rip, try all the stuff you have and see how it sounds to you and then decide if you need to become more involved....and that can become dangerous as most here can attest to.....
 
those phono preamps built into those units will be hard to beat once they are up to spec. Don't know if they would benefit from new caps but other than that they are up to spec.

Yes, a phono pre would be an upgrade but if those are working correctly it will be nearly 4 figures to get something better.
 
Depends on how much you want to spend. Most stand alone phono amps will outperform a vintage receivers built in phono stage. If that is what you've been using, a good stand alone will be a pleasant revelation.
I was using a PS Audio GCPH that I picked up off the bay used for $600. I used it for about 4yrs and was rather happy with it. I then started hearing about the Parasound JC3+ and the great reviews it was getting. It was being compared to units costing WAY more than the Parasound $3000 retail price. (got mine for about half that. It was a dealers demo unit).
Anyway, it's the last phono amp I'll buy. I would have to spend a lot more to better its sound. The sound will improve as I upgrade the turntable cartridge.
 
gizzyman47 said:
Depends on how much you want to spend. Most stand alone phono amps will outperform a vintage receivers built in phono stage. If that is what you've been using, a good stand alone will be a pleasant revelation.
I was using a PS Audio GCPH that I picked up off the bay used for $600. I used it for about 4yrs and was rather happy with it. I then started hearing about the Parasound JC3+ and the great reviews it was getting. It was being compared to units costing WAY more than the Parasound $3000 retail price. (got mine for about half that. It was a dealers demo unit).
Anyway, it's the last phono amp I'll buy. I would have to spend a lot more to better its sound. The sound will improve as I upgrade the turntable cartridge.
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I have the JC3+'s baby brother, the JC3-Jr. I paid less than half of retail for a 1-year old sample off my local craigslist. To date, it has been the single most significant upgrade I have made to my system.

So, to the OP, yes a stand alone phone stage can best an internal one, if you are willing to spend enough money.
 
Have you compared yours? Not with A/B switching, but with listening to each through the same amp for a week or so? Taking the signal from the Tape Out on the phono stage you're trying, into a line-level input on the amp driving the speakers, so you're changing only the phono stage, and not comparing the entire units?

Or do you already have a favorite among them? Just curious. :)
 
I’m not sure your front end is at a level that would benefit significantly from an outboard phono stage whose cost is in line with the front end itself. If you bought a $500 table/cart I doubt you will want to feed a $2k (or even a $1k) phono stage before you upgrade the table and/or cart.

Back when I had a somewhat comparable level table (Rega P2 and Denon DL160), I did get a reasonable improvement going from receivers/integrateds stages to a Lehmann Black Cube. Bigger improvements as I upgraded tables and carts.

I’d say if you intend to upgrade your table/cart eventually, it would make some sense to get a good outboard stage you can grow into ... especially getting one with a variety of loading options ... if not, I wouldn’t buy a sub-$500 outboard stage as a long term upgrade (if it is an upgrade at all).
 
I feel like a phono pre makes a huge difference. If you go used, for $500-$600 you can get a phono pre that will best most onboard phono pre’s (within reason of course). I have a restored Mcintosh MX115 but still choose to use a Jolida JD9ii instead of the Mac’s onboard. Besides it giving me the option of using either MM or MC carts, it just flat out sounds better.
 
Inscrutable said:
I’m not sure your front end is at a level that would benefit significantly from an outboard phono stage whose cost is in line with the front end itself.
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Right. So might as well hook everything up, and like SQL said try things out and compare what you hear before going any further.

Inscrutable said:
If you bought a $500 table/cart I doubt you will want to feed a $2k (or even a $1k) phono stage before you upgrade the table and/or cart.
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Right. As I alluded to earlier, it will depend on how demanding you are based on what you hear.....you might also see if you might borrow one from a friend and try it out after you've spent some time listening to what you have. This is a good way to judge where you're at without buying something that you haven't heard, or at least having some reference point.

What's the rest of your system comprised of? I.e., what cartridge is on the table? What speakers do you have? What is the nature of your listening space? Just trying to get more of a feel for what stage you're at.....
 
Remember that pretty much every receiver, integrated amp and preamp offered on board phono preamps back in vinyl's glory years, but some were not compatible with moving coil cartridges that were somewhat new at the time. Manufacturers saw this as an opening for new product offerings in stand alone phono preamps that offered both MM and MC with multiple loading options. People mostly bought them for the moving coil compatibility. Did they actually offer better MM sound quality than the existing on board MM phono preamps? In my many years spent spinning vinyl, I'd say no. Since I put my turntable and album collection into storage about 10 years ago, many stand alone phono preamps have been offered with vinyl's current rebound in popularity. Are they better than what's built into today's modern receivers, integrated amps or preamps? I really doubt it, unless we're talking about entry level consumer grade audio components. It doesn't take much room to stuff a modern receiver, integrated or preamp with the same phono preamp architecture used in supposed high end separates, and most manufacturers within the high end community are doing that in their newer components because of vinyl's resurgence. If you're happy with your older components and they are up to spec, I doubt if you'd hear a significant improvement with todays stand alone stuff. Just another box and cables.
 
jayvis said:
Remember that pretty much every receiver, integrated amp and preamp offered on board phono preamps back in vinyl's glory years, but some were not compatible with moving coil cartridges that were somewhat new at the time. Manufacturers saw this as an opening for new product offerings in stand alone phono preamps that offered both MM and MC with multiple loading options. People mostly bought them for the moving coil compatibility. Did they actually offer better MM sound quality than the existing on board MM phono preamps? In my many years spent spinning vinyl, I'd say no. Since I put my turntable and album collection into storage about 10 years ago, many stand alone phono preamps have been offered with vinyl's current rebound in popularity. Are they better than what's built into today's modern receivers, integrated amps or preamps? I really doubt it, unless we're talking about entry level consumer grade audio components. It doesn't take much room to stuff a modern receiver, integrated or preamp with the same phono preamp architecture used in supposed high end separates, and most manufacturers within the high end community are doing that in their newer components because of vinyl's resurgence. If you're happy with your older components and they are up to spec, I doubt if you'd hear a significant improvement with todays stand alone stuff. Just another box and cables.
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Your post is full of misinformation. Moving Coil phono cartridges were readily available in the 1940s, pre-dating stereo recordings by a decade. The Ortofon MC Mono-A was introduced in 1948 and the popular Denon DL-103 family has been in constant production since 1962. MC cartridges are not some recent development. Many vintage receivers, integrated amps and preamps had built in support for MC cartridges. The oldest I currently have are a Nikko Beta III preamp from 1979 and a Yamaha A-1000 integrated amp from 1983. Both have support for MC as well as MM phono cartridges. There are countless older models that do the same, those just happen to be what I currently have on hand. Your "theory" that external phono stages were a result of the lack of MC support in internal phono stages is simply not true.

Your other "theory" that stand alone phono stages aren't any better "than what's built into today's modern receivers, integrated amps or preamps" is also false. "It doesn't take much room to stuff a modern receiver, integrated or preamp with the same phono preamp architecture used in supposed high end separates, and most manufacturers" = also false.

Your post is full of falsehoods and false assumptions. It's very clear from your post that you have never even heard a high quality modern stand alone phono stage. You admit you haven't even spun any vinyl in 10 years, so clearly you haven't heard a single stand alone phono stage (or even a built in phono stage) made in over a decade. So, how can you possibly conclude "I doubt if you'd hear a significant improvement with todays stand alone stuff"?
 
Thanks to all for the input. It seems as if there are some quite different perspectives on the advantage of phono preamps. Furthermore, I get the impression that improving the sound would require rather expensive or higher end phono preamps. I'll try to answer some of the questions folks have asked in this thread.
First of all, the Rega RP1 I believe is the standard cartridge and stylus, I hear that the Bias 2 cartridge is a recommended upgrade, so I am considering that.
Someone also asked about the speakers and environment. I am currently using Vandersteen 2C speakers, but I have a pair of Dahlquist DQ-10s with the DQ-1 bass module and the DQ-LPI variable low pass filter. This is my preferred setup, but wifey doesn't it in the living room, so my main system is in the family room in the basement. LOL. I also have a pair of Linn Kheilidh (sp) that IMO don't compare to the previous mentioned speakers.

Listening area is roughly 15' x 24' with 8' ceiling.

In closing, I feel that the phono stages in all three units is definitely satisfactory my ears, particularly the CX-2000 ( which does accommodate MC cartridges.
 
that70sguy said:
Thanks to all for the input. It seems as if there are some quite different perspectives on the advantage of phono preamps. Furthermore, I get the impression that improving the sound would require rather expensive or higher end phono preamps.
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Since I haven't heard your built in phono stages, I can't say for sure how much you'd need to spend to better them. Depending on the state of the capacitors, it might not take much. The units you list were all very well regarded back when new, but they are all between 32 and 43 years old now. Even if the original caps have not drifted, in general capacitor and resister tolerances have improved during the intervening decades. Back then, most resistors were 5% or 10% tolerance and capacitors were typically +/- 20%. It's not unusual for a modern phono stage to use 1% resistors and 5%, or even 1%, caps in the RIAA equalization circuit. That means more accurate and flatter response, and better balance between the left and right channels. Whether or not you can hear the difference, only you can say.

A modern stand alone phono stage will also have its own dedicated power supply. In a vintage receiver the phono stage will be sharing a transformer and bridge rectifier with the power amp, preamp and tuner. A well designed, dedicated power supply will likely result in cleaner, quieter power to the phono stage, which means a quieter background and likely better transients.

That said, until about 9 months ago, I was using the built in phono stages in my vintage integrated amp and preamp. I thought they sounded good, but as I moved up the stand alone phono stage ladder, I realized how much better things can be. I started with a Schiit Mani. It's very popular and retails for $129. It was ok, but not really a significant improvement in any way over the built in phono stages in my Yamaha A-1000 or Nikko Beta III. I then moved up to a DIY CNC phono stage. I hand selected all the components in the signal path and used tight tolerance parts in the RIAA equalization circuit. Even my deluxe version, including a nice cherry and birdseye maple enclosure, came in well under $200 and it was a significant improvement over the Mani. From there, I moved up to a used Parasound JC3 Jr. (I got deal that was too good to pass up). That was a jaw dropping revelation. I have since moved up to LOMC carts with the JC3 Jr., but initially I was using it with the same MM carts I'd been using previously, going all the way back to my Yamaha A-1000 and Nikko Beta III. The improvement in detail and sound quality was not subtle.

If you are happy with what you have, and you do have some excellent vintage pieces, by all means, continue to use them. Since you have three, maybe take turns getting the phono stages in each recapped. Or, if you have someone close by that could loan you a decent stand alone phono stage to try in your system, that would be ideal. I'm not familiar with all the options less than $500, but there are some in the $300 - $400 range that people seem to like. Or, you could build one of the CNC phono stages for about $150 - $200 (depending on choice of components and enclosure). If soldering the PCBs sounds too challenging, user @sachu888 will provide the PCBs preassembled at a very reasonable cost and all you'll have to do is install them in an enclosure if your choice.
 
MCM_Fan said:
Your post is full of misinformation. Moving Coil phono cartridges were readily available in the 1940s, pre-dating stereo recordings by a decade. The Ortofon MC Mono-A was introduced in 1948 and the popular Denon DL-103 family has been in constant production since 1962. MC cartridges are not some recent development. Many vintage receivers, integrated amps and preamps had built in support for MC cartridges. The oldest I currently have are a Nikko Beta III preamp from 1979 and a Yamaha A-1000 integrated amp from 1983. Both have support for MC as well as MM phono cartridges. There are countless older models that do the same, those just happen to be what I currently have on hand. Your "theory" that external phono stages were a result of the lack of MC support in internal phono stages is simply not true.

Your other "theory" that stand alone phono stages aren't any better "than what's built into today's modern receivers, integrated amps or preamps" is also false. "It doesn't take much room to stuff a modern receiver, integrated or preamp with the same phono preamp architecture used in supposed high end separates, and most manufacturers" = also false.

Your post is full of falsehoods and false assumptions. It's very clear from your post that you have never even heard a high quality modern stand alone phono stage. You admit you haven't even spun any vinyl in 10 years, so clearly you haven't heard a single stand alone phono stage (or even a built in phono stage) made in over a decade. So, how can you possibly conclude "I doubt if you'd hear a significant improvement with todays stand alone stuff"?
Click to expand...

Well, just keep spending your money the way you want. You obviously didn't read my post carefully. I meant that MC cartridges were fairly new to the general audio community back in vinyl's peek popularity in the 60's and 70's. Although MC was around much earlier doesn't mean they were readily available or very popular at that time. Also, just because I've moved on from vinyl in my own system doesn't mean I haven't heard many stand alone phono preamps since. My best advice to anyone who's first starting to move into vinyl is to spend as much as you can tolerate on your phono cartridge. It's far more important.
 
I was using onboard phonostages from a variety of receivers including marantz 2230, kenwood kr-7600, Yamaha cr2040 and Fisher 500c. All sounded very good.

Then I bought a project ds2 tube phono preamp because it could accommodate 2 turntables, 2 amps and both mm and mc carts with adjustable loads. It was the single biggest improvement in my system I have experienced. And you can tube roll to your taste. I think this preamp flys below the radar and although not cheap, it has more features than many pricier preamps. Got mine on sale and it is one component that I have no desire to change. I suspect it would take a lot to beat it. Just my experience.
 
Every link in the chain matters. If you have a really nice turntable and put a equally nice cartridge on it, don't expect big things if it's all going to a "so so" phono stage whether its in a receiver/integrated/standalone phono amp.
 
I think that below about $200 or so, most phono-pre's tend to sound more similar than different, and better is more a matter of 'which one do you like?'

I run separates, so a stand-alone phono-pre is a necessity. That said, I also have a recently re-capped Kenwood Basic C2 pre with a very good onboard MM/MC phono stage. I prefer my Parasound Zphono, it has a more dynamic presentation. The Kenwood is quieter, but the Zphono is more fun to listen to.
 
Jay: A external phono stage can be an upgrade compared to integrated phono stage, if

- it's actually better in terms of design/circuitry and part quality,

- or/and it fits better to one's cartridge(s) in terms of input parameters (either generally or due to being adjustable in that regard),

- or/and one just happens to prefer its sound,

- or/and because the integrated phono stage isn't in good operating condition anymore (aged parts, dirty/corroded switches...).

At least regarding the first two points, checking/comparing the specs as well as the service manuals and schematics can be pretty helpful.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
That Yamaha CX-2000 preamp is very nice indeed. The phono section specs are nothing short of spectacular and the circuit is pretty well thought.
The 0.001% THD combined with 0.2dB deviation from the RIAA curve shows it's not just a "throw in a phono stage as well" case. And the 180mV overload value ensures it can deliver very good dynamic range (don't let the 3-5mV average output of the MM carts fool you that 180mV is redundant).

And the unit is not that old vintage to not include the huge improvements of the 70s and 80s in design and components.

Some may argue that the 5532 employed in the MC step up and phono section are not wanted. Douglas Self would beg to differ. IMHO you would have to spend a couple of thousand to get something better than that in today's vintage, just for the phono stage.

Regarding capacitors, electrolytics are not used in the signal path and a 0.2dB deviation RIAA curve can only be built using precision components and polycarbonate capacitors. Unfortunately the schematic in hifiengine is a bit low res to actually enjoy the circuit but from the picture it shows, its a high-class design. Plenty of 100uF and 1000uF supply filter capacitors throughout the phono section. Now I want one.

PS. So I visited ebay and my initial smile that there are plenty on offer disappeared when I saw the price. But I did look at the pictures and it looks like the phono section has selective loading for the MM and MC inputs. Here you go, it has both the bells and the whistles.

Stay with this preamp and be happy. Upgrade your turntable and cart to make them worthy of the preamp.
 
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SaSi: Exacly what I intended to hint to above: One really needs to thoroughly assess an integrated phono stage, in order to judge, what calibre of separate phono stage could compete with it or could be even better - or respectively what calibre of separate phono stage needn't apply, due to having no chance.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
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