Which JICO SAS on Shure V15 Type IV or Type V?

[MCM_Fan]

I'm considering getting a JICO SAS for one of my Shure V15 cartridges. Over the past year, I've kind of fallen backwards into two V15 cartridges. They both came on tables I purchased, but neither had the original stylus. One is a V15 Type V (the original, not the Vx) and the other is a Type IV. I've read a lot of threads on the subject, but am still a bit confused by all of the options and possible combinations.

First question, how many of you running an SAS (any flavor) on a V15 Type IV or V are running it with the brush down? I've read many general comments that the aftermarket brushes are not as good/effective as the originals. If the brushes provide no benefit, I can also run a brushless V15 Type III SAS on my type IV. If you are running it brush down, does it provide a similar benefit to the original?

Second, which cartridge should I target, Type IV or Type V? I know the Type V is theoretically the better model, but I've read a lot about the resonances caused by the two-piece cantilever and the loading requirements to flatten out the high frequency peaks caused by those resonances. It seems like both require significant capacitive loading, the V more than the IV. Both my amp and turntable (well, one of them) have the ability to add capacitive loading. I can get to around 600pF just by tweaking a coupe knobs, but may have to add some loading plugs to got to the 700pF, or so, recommended for the Type V (not a deal breaker, as I've already built some resistive loading plugs for another cartridge and have the parts on hand, just less convenient). So, Type IV or V? My first inclination was the Type IV, but I have it running with a decent elliptical on another table right now while the Type V sits idle. Still, I have plenty of cartridges for both of my tables and what I'm really looking for here is the best sound possible out of a V15/SAS combo.

Third, which SAS? My first inclination is the original boron cantilever SAS as it seems to offer the best combination of performance/cost/durability. LP Tunes, the official North America distributor for JICO offers the SAS with the original boron cantilever and a zirconia cantilever (which they warn is very fragile) and the neoSAS with ruby of sapphire cantilever for about $50 more. It's also possible to get the boron SAS on eBay from eBay sellers in Japan for even less. This seems like the "best buy", but has anyone actually bought an SAS off eBay? Even if the seller has 100% positive feedback, is it worth it to save ~20% on a $200 stylus?

Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions. I have these two wonderful vintage Shure V15 cartridges and have yet to hear them at their best (or even at all in the case of the Type V). With the elliptical in the Type IV, have gotten a hint at what it can do, but strongly suspect with a more advanced tip, it can do much, much better.

 

[rob Brandt]

I have the Vx (final version) for soooo long now. Four or five genuine Shures went through it before I saved the last genuine Shure for posterity and recording purposes only. I have had a Soundsmith Ruby retip which was extremely close to the original and now I have had two Jico's SAS--both the original non-gem canitlever types which are under $200.00 these days on ebay direct from Japan. The last Jico I got came from Japan directly--a couple weeks, and is the real deal. They are cheaper because they were made for the domestic market mot export. Prices fluctuate with currency exchanges.

You can't get a retip w/o the original stylus, but the Jicos are very very good. Not quite as smooth on the highs as the genuine Shure, but darn close and very airy and open with great bass response.

 

[MCM_Fan]

I have the Vx (final version) for soooo long now. Four or five genuine Shures went through it before I saved the last genuine Shure for posterity and recording purposes only. I have had a Soundsmith Ruby retip which was extremely close to the original and now I have had two Jico's SAS--both the original non-gem canitlever types which are under $200.00 these days on ebay direct from Japan. The last Jico I got came from Japan directly--a couple weeks, and is the real deal. They are cheaper because they were made for the domestic market mot export. Prices fluctuate with currency exchanges.

You can't get a retip w/o the original stylus, but the Jicos are very very good. Not quite as smooth on the highs as the genuine Shure, but darn close and very airy and open with great bass response.

Thanks, I've been eyeing those boron cantilever SAS styli on eBay and the prices are tempting me.

 

[mackat]

I am also considering obtaining a Jico SAS for either my V15 V-MR or V15 IV. I had one on my V-MR around 2012, shortly before I got out of vinyl for quite a while. I remember that I liked it a lot. I used it both on a stock SL-1200 tonearm and an Infinity Black Widow tonearm that I had mounted on my then SL-1200. I still have the DB systems DB-6 capacitance plug kit that I used to experiment with different levels of capacitance, though I don't remember the details. I also had one for a brief period on a V15 III that I had back then.

I bought my V-MR used in 2011, and I still have the original stylus. It still sounds quite good to me, though I rarely ever use it, since I don't know for certain how worn it is. My V15 IV does not have an original stylus, and currently has an underwhelming inexpensive aftermarket stylus. I'm really torn in terms of which cartridge to get the SAS for. I know I will like it on the V-MR, but the IV doesn't currently have even a satisfactory stylus and I am curious to hear how an SAS would sound on it.

 

[MCM_Fan]

I am also considering obtaining a Jico SAS for either my V15 V-MR or V15 IV. I had one on my V-MR around 2012, shortly before I got out of vinyl for quite a while. I remember that I liked it a lot. I used it both on a stock SL-1200 tonearm and an Infinity Black Widow tonearm that I had mounted on my then SL-1200. I still have the DB systems DB-6 capacitance plug kit that I used to experiment with different levels of capacitance, though I don't remember the details. I also had one for a brief period on a V15 III that I had back then.

I bought my V-MR used in 2011, and I still have the original stylus. It still sounds quite good to me, though I rarely ever use it, since I don't know for certain how worn it is. My V15 IV does not have an original stylus, and currently has an underwhelming inexpensive aftermarket stylus. I'm really torn in terms of which cartridge to get the SAS for. I know I will like it on the V-MR, but the IV doesn't currently have even a satisfactory stylus and I am curious to hear how an SAS would sound on it.

Thank begs the question, what exactly are the differences, if any, between a JICO VN45 SAS/B and a JICO VN5MR SAS/B? Looking at photos on the JICO site, LP Tunes, LP Gear and eBay listings is useless. Most seem to use the same stock photos, and even the JICO site has an single incorrect product photo of the VN45 SAS/B (the photo clearly shows a 1-piece aluminum cantilever, not a 2-piece boron).

The only other apparent difference appears to be how the stylus guard is labeled. In all cases, the VN45 SAS/B seems to be unlabeled. On the JICO site the VN5MR SAS/B is labeled VN5MR. On LP Tunes, LP Gear and the eBay listings, it's labeled STEREO. But, these are merely cosmetic differences. We can't see what's inside the brass mounting tube in any of the photos. Is the size, shape, strength and location of the magnets the same? Any other differences in the suspension? No way to tell.

Anyone here have any experience with SAS styli for both the V15 Type IV and Type V? If so, can you speak to any differences, if any? In theory, what would be different and why? I know a Type IV SAS will fit on a Type V (and not a Type Vx), but will it sound the same, or different than a Type VMR SAS? If so why? Ideally, I'd like to purchase one boron cantilever SAS and try it on my Type IV and V and see which I prefer in my system, but I don't want to handicap one of the carts by running a stylus that is somehow not optimized for that body.

I will to send JICO an email directly with my questions but don't really expect an enlightening answer. I expect they will tell me the V45 is optimized for the Type IV and the V5MR is optimized for the Type V, with no real explanation of the differences. Who knows, they may surprise me. If they do I will reward them by ordering my SAS directly from them, even though it costs more. Not much to them, but I believe in paying for good customer support when I get it.

 

[MCM_Fan]

I sent an email to JIC about this yeaterday and got a response last night. Here's what I asked:

I have two vintage Shure V15 cartridges, a V15 Type IV and a V15 Type V-MR. I am considering a JICO SAS/B stylus as a replacement, but would like to order one stylus and try it with both cartridges to see which I prefer in my system. What, if any, differences are their between a JICO VN-45HE SAS/B and a JICO VN-5MR HG SAS/B? If I order a VN-45HE SAS/B, will it also perform correctly in my Shure V15 Type V-MR cartridge? Mechanically, I know it will fit, but I am curious if there are any differences in the magnet structures and suspension between the VN-45HE SAS/B and the VN-5MR HG SAS/B.

And here is their response:

Thanks for contacting JICO.
To be honest, I would not recommend to use VN-5MR on Type IV cartridge or vise-versa by using VN-45HE on Type V. We had similar issues in the past from other customers claiming that it will fit but the size of the holder is bit different. I cannot take any responsibilities if any damages occurs by choosing incorrect stylus nor using non-compatible stylus.

The major differences between those two styli are that VN-5MR HG uses “one-point tension wire” meaning it is tapered stiffly on cantilever than normal wire. The sound is to be said more clear than other stylus.

Wow, not really what I expected. I was expecting something along the lines of it will fit but performance will not be optimal, not that putting a Type IV SAS stylus in a Type V body (or vise versa) could potentially cause physical damage to your cartridge.

So, back to square one - trying to decide if I go for the VN45 SAS/B for my Type V or the V5MR SAS/B for my Type V...

 

[mackat]

I sent an email to JIC about this yeaterday and got a response last night. Here's what I asked:


And here is their response:


Wow, not really what I expected. I was expecting something along the lines of it will fit but performance will not be optimal, not that putting a Type IV SAS stylus in a Type V body (or vise versa) could potentially cause physical damage to your cartridge.

So, back to square one - trying to decide if I go for the VN45 SAS/B for my Type V or the V5MR SAS/B for my Type V...

Hmm...interesting! I had actually never heard that the IV stylus could fit in a V cartridge. The inexpensive (EVG, I think) stylus I currently have in my IV is actually a III stylus, and I wonder if that contributes to it not sounding great, even though it does fit. I’d probably go for the VN5MR SSA for the V if you’re interested in the best possible sound quality. From what I can see, the V stylus is slightly cheaper on eBay. I’m also having a lot of trouble deciding. Logic tells me to go with the VN5MR, but it would be nice to have a period-correct cartridge on my SL-1301 (even though the V isn’t too much older edit: Oops, I meant newer)

 

[MCM_Fan]

Hmm...interesting! I had actually never heard that the IV stylus could fit in a V cartridge. The inexpensive (EVG, I think) stylus I currently have in my IV is actually a III stylus, and I wonder if that contributes to it not sounding great, even though it does fit. I’d probably go for the VN5MR SSA for the V if you’re interested in the best possible sound quality. From what I can see, the V stylus is slightly cheaper on eBay. I’m also having a lot of trouble deciding. Logic tells me to go with the VN5MR, but it would be nice to have a period-correct cartridge on my SL-1301 (even though the V isn’t too much older).

It seems like we're in the same boat. My V15 Type IV came on the SL-1401 I picked up about two months ago. I got the table from the original owners (literally a barn find, had been in the loft of their pole barn for over 20 years) and the V15 Type IV was the original cartridge. As mentioned previously, the original stylus was long gone. I've been running a Kyowa 0.3 x 0.7 mil elliptical on it. It's a good aftermarket stylus for $18.99, but there is definitely some high frequency roll off. Yesterday, I was listening to some of my best sounding albums, and the lack of high frequency detail was just too much to bear. I swapped back the Signet TK5E (0.2 x 0.7 mil original nude elliptical) and everything sounded so much better (I REALLY like my vintage Signets, the TK5E and the TK10ML, track great and sound great with plenty of detail and absolutely no hint of harshness or listening fatigue).

I feel I am doing both the V15 Type IV and the SL-1401 a disservice by not running them together with a stylus of proper quality. So, I'm leaning toward the VN45 SAS/B.

My V15 Type V-MR came on a Sony PS-X55 I got at Goodwill for $24.99 (that one REALLY looked like it had been in someone's barn for decades, but it cleaned up very nicely). It didn't come with a stylus. So, I've never heard the V15 Type V-MR with any stylus on any table. The Sony tonearm has the same 8g effective mass as my Harman Kardon T60. I have several vintage high compliance carts that work great with those arms (including the Signet TK10ML). So, I've hesitated to spend the money on an SAS for the Type V-MR. I know I can run it on the SL-1401, but it just seems more "right" to restore the SL-1401 to as close as possible to its original configuration.

 

[AudioJag]

instead of reading all this I will just say: I use a Shure V15 IV with a Jico SAS/B (boron cantilever) on an SME Series III arm with the brush down.

In my opinion only.... I love it and if I were to make any change, I might get the Jico SAS/S (saffire cantilever) down the road.

 

[mackat]

It seems like we're in the same boat. My V15 Type IV came on the SL-1401 I picked up about two months ago. I got the table from the original owners (literally a barn find, had been in the loft of their pole barn for over 20 years) and the V15 Type IV was the original cartridge. As mentioned previously, the original stylus was long gone. I've been running a Kyowa 0.3 x 0.7 mil elliptical on it. It's a good aftermarket stylus for $18.99, but there is definitely some high frequency roll off. Yesterday, I was listening to some of my best sounding albums, and the lack of high frequency detail was just too much to bear. I swapped back the Signet TK5E (0.2 x 0.7 mil original nude elliptical) and everything sounded so much better (I REALLY like my vintage Signets, the TK5E and the TK10ML, track great and sound great with plenty of detail and absolutely no hint of harshness or listening fatigue).

I feel I am doing both the V15 Type IV and the SL-1401 a disservice by not running them together with a stylus of proper quality. So, I'm leaning toward the VN45 SAS/B.

My V15 Type V-MR came on a Sony PS-X55 I got at Goodwill for $24.99 (that one REALLY looked like it had been in someone's barn for decades, but it cleaned up very nicely). It didn't come with a stylus. So, I've never heard the V15 Type V-MR with any stylus on any table. The Sony tonearm has the same 8g effective mass as my Harman Kardon T60. I have several vintage high compliance carts that work great with those arms (including the Signet TK10ML). So, I've hesitated to spend the money on an SAS for the Type V-MR. I know I can run it on the SL-1401, but it just seems more "right" to restore the SL-1401 to as close as possible to its original configuration.

It seems like we are indeed! I think it was actually your post about your 1401 that made me seriously start looking for one. I used to have an SL-1300MK2, which I absolutely loved the look of, but ended up screwing up the tonearm mechanism trying to fix the cueing defect. I got so upset about it that I (stupidly) ended up giving it away a few months ago. I ended up finding an SL-1301 one listed as not working on eBay and took a chance on it. It turns out that all it took was a small adjustment of a potentiometer and the motor started working as properly as the day it came out of the factory. It actually shows slightly better wow & flutter measurements (using the RPM app on my phone) than my 2010 era SL-1200MK2, which surprised me. It’s in decent condition overall, certainly not as mint as yours (how is the platter still that shiny??), but still nice looking. I’m currently running my VM540ML on it, which sounds lovely. I recently acquired an OC9ML/II, which is currently on my SL-1200MK2. It sounds quite nice, but I’m not sure that I’m as enthralled with its sound as I am with that of the VM540ML.

I got my V15 IV for $40 mounted on a very low end Dual belt drive turntable with an incredibly noisy motor. The stylus was also long gone on it. The current cheapie I have was, I believe, an EVG for the Type III that I purchased from The Voice of Music (which doesn’t seem to be available anymore). The first one I ordered had a defective suspension, they send another one out and it works fine. It just doesn’t sound very good to me. Realistically speaking, the last thing I need right now is to spend a good amount of money on an SAS stylus, but I have wanted to do it for a while, considering it’s been 8 years (!!!) since I last listened to one. I just wish I knew which cartridge to get one for!

Also, as I believe you said you lubricated your SL-1401, how noisy are the automatic functions now? Mine makes some clunking noises, and I’m wondering if they would lessen at all with the lubrication I’m sure it needs by now.

 

[rebellovw]

This is the thread that shows the stylus that can work with each V15 type. I assume the info is legit.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/shure-v15-cartridges-in-a-nutshell.672563/

 

[MCM_Fan]

It’s in decent condition overall, certainly not as mint as yours (how is the platter still that shiny??), but still nice looking.

Yes, that's a very nice looking SL-1301. My platter wasn't nearly that shiny when I got it. In fact, the whole table was covered with about 20 years of accumulated dust and grime. Here's how I polished the platter rim. I'm very pleased with the way it came out.

Also, as I believe you said you lubricated your SL-1401, how noisy are the automatic functions now? Mine makes some clunking noises, and I’m wondering if they would lessen at all with the lubrication I’m sure it needs by now.

It's pretty quiet. The SL-1401 is a semi-auto, so just auto-lift return and shut off. From my listening position (7 - 8 feet away), I can hear a faint clunk when the auto-lift engages and another when the arm sits down in the armrest. It's quiet enough that I don't usually even notice it. I specifically listened to it just now as it finished an album side so I could answer your question. Not silent, but not at all obtrusive.

 

[MCM_Fan]

This is the thread that shows the stylus that can work with each V15 type. I assume the info is legit.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/shure-v15-cartridges-in-a-nutshell.672563/

Thanks, that's in agreement with what I believe based on several other posts I've read. Nice to see it summarized in one place. Not sure what I make of JICO's comments. Are the just covering for themselves in case something goes wrong, or perhaps trying to convince me I need to buy two SAS styli, one for each of my V15s?

Who knows, I may buy one for the Type IV and end up liking it so much on the SL-1401 that I may end up also buying one for the Type V-MR on the T60. For now, I don't really NEED another vintage high compliance cart for the T60. The Signet TK10ML, Grado G2+, Empire 2000E/III, and more are doing fine for now, but eventually when those styli wear out, it migt be nice to have a cart like the V15 Type V-MR that can be fitted with a high quality current aftermarket stylus like the SAS.

 

[mackat]

Yes, that's a very nice looking SL-1301. My platter wasn't nearly that shiny when I got it. In fact, the whole table was covered with about 20 years of accumulated dust and grime. Here's how I polished the platter rim. I'm very pleased with the way it came out.



It's pretty quiet. The SL-1401 is a semi-auto, so just auto-lift return and shut off. From my listening position (7 - 8 feet away), I can hear a faint clunk when the auto-lift engages and another when the arm sits down in the armrest. It's quiet enough that I don't usually even notice it. I specifically listened to it just now as it finished an album side so I could answer your question. Not silent, but not at all obtrusive.

Thank you for that, I’ve been wanting to polish the platter! I’m going to put my mask on shortly and head out to pick up that polish and some wax.

I forgot that the 1401 is semi-auto, oops. I suppose mine is really the same way, the auto functions are audible but not super loud unless you’re hovering over it. I’m sure it could use some grease, but I’m not too experienced with that (although I did use it to fix a common problem with my SL-1300).

 

[AdamAnt316]

When I picked up my Shure V-15 IV on eBay several years ago, it came with a busted stylus, as I expected. I ordered a JICO SAS (original boron) stylus for it, but while I was waiting for it to arrive, I asked a friend to help me fit it on my Dual 1219's cartridge carrier. He had a V-15 V with its original stylus, and he used the VN-5HE from it as a guide for the alignment. After he was done, I waited for the "VN-45SAS" to arrive in the mail, and when it did, I installed it, and it worked perfectly. I think it's safe to say that using a VN5 in a IV won't damage the cartridge internally, though I wouldn't call that an absolute guarantee, offer not valid in all states, and as always (and perhaps moreso than ever), do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
-Adam

 

[MCM_Fan]

Thank you for that, I’ve been wanting to polish the platter! I’m going to put my mask on shortly and head out to pick up that polish and some wax.

I forgot that the 1401 is semi-auto, oops. I suppose mine is really the same way, the auto functions are audible but not super loud unless you’re hovering over it. I’m sure it could use some grease, but I’m not too experienced with that (although I did use it to fix a common problem with my SL-1300).

If you can't find the Renaissance Wax Polish locally, they sell it at Amazon. You could probably substitute any decent quality furniture or car wax. The point of the wax is just to protect the polished platter from finger prints.

 

[mackat]

If you can't find the Renaissance Wax Polish locally, they sell it at Amazon. You could probably substitute any decent quality furniture or car wax. The point of the wax is just to protect the polished platter from finger prints.

Well, I polished it, but I think I’m going to need to do it again. I only had some very small rags, so I tried to do it with a dremel and a buffing pad. Unfortunately, the polishing came out somewhat uneven. I held it in one spot too long and it’s more polished than the rest of the rim. I wonder if a larger buffing pad used with a drill would do a better, more even job. It’s definitely nicer looking than it was before, but not quite there yet.

Thank you for the suggestion, I’ll have to get some of that. All I got was the Mother’s Polish.

Ben

 

[mackat]

Unfortunately, as of today, most package services through Japan Post will not be accepted for delivery to the US until further notice. Seamail is still running, which takes a couple months, and it also says “regular mail (small packages and printed materials”, though I don’t know what falls under that classification. There’s no EMS, SAL, or Airmail. Just a heads up to anyone planning on buying something from Japan right now. I currently have a turntable sitting at a proxy shipper there, and I have to either pay through the nose for quick FedEx shipping or wait months for it to be sent via seamail. Smaller items through a proxy shipper should be fine, as their discounted FedEx rates are reasonable. I have a tonearm and platter mat that was sent yesterday and will arrive tomorrow, and it was around $50.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&u=https://www.post.japanpost.jp/index.html

 

[MCM_Fan]

Unfortunately, as of today, most package services through Japan Post will not be accepted for delivery to the US until further notice. Seamail is still running, which takes a couple months, and it also says “regular mail (small packages and printed materials”, though I don’t know what falls under that classification. There’s no EMS, SAL, or Airmail. Just a heads up to anyone planning on buying something from Japan right now. I currently have a turntable sitting at a proxy shipper there, and I have to either pay through the nose for quick FedEx shipping or wait months for it to be sent via seamail. Smaller items through a proxy shipper should be fine, as their discounted FedEx rates are reasonable. I have a tonearm and platter mat that was sent yesterday and will arrive tomorrow, and it was around $50.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&u=https://www.post.japanpost.jp/index.html

The shipping delays out of Japan are unfortunate, but it looks like LP Tunes has both the VN45 SAS/B and VN5MR SAS/B in stock in the US. Their prices are higher than the Japanese eBay sellers, but the shipping is free and should considerably faster than shipping from Japan under the current conditions.

 

[rob Brandt]

I should add here somewhere that my TT is a heavily moded MK 150 with an origin live motor and motor control box, SME S2 Imp with solid silver litz rewire.
The sound using the JICO SAS boron is crystal clear, airy, excellent and well pronounced bass. Mid range and highs are very nice--voices are just almost live.