thunderroad
Life begins at 140 mph.
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Which of these 3 carts would you recommend?
- Thread starter steelglam
- Start date
Not a problem! We're all friends here!
You can say that again. I am very sensitive to stylus wear. If I were purchasing any of these older carts, I would want to listen to them before I made a purchase.
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musichal
poet emeritus
I kinda figure a new stylus is gonna be pretty much mandatory with a used cart from an unknown seller. Hopefully, one gets to listen prior to buying...but for me, buying a used cart is about the body, not the stylus, unless I really know seller.
vinylisfinal
Super Member
i have the shure and the adc... my tastes lean towards the shure
vinylisfinal
Super Member
www.ewsaunders.com- good shure replace styli
shoggoth80
Active Member
I concur with the idea that a used cart will need a replacement stylus. When I sold carts, I either sold them without stylus, or made the caveat that I had no idea how many hours of play were on them (as even I got them used, and tested them just to make sure they worked). When buying a used cart, by it for the body and the potential it holds, provided they are MM rather than MC...which these all seem to be. I will say that used cart hunting is fun. Best of luck in the choice.
The XLM Mk.III is a fine sounding cart. I had one, and really liked it, but opted to keep other higher end carts that I picked up in the process, and even an entry level cart because I liked the hotter output of it.
If you can talk those prices down, getting all three might be a possibility, and you can in fact recoup your costs on a lot of them. If you get lucky on a run like that, capitalize.
The XLM Mk.III is a fine sounding cart. I had one, and really liked it, but opted to keep other higher end carts that I picked up in the process, and even an entry level cart because I liked the hotter output of it.
If you can talk those prices down, getting all three might be a possibility, and you can in fact recoup your costs on a lot of them. If you get lucky on a run like that, capitalize.
So, update here...I ended up just picking up the ADC XLM.
Do folks think this would be a bad match with my Pioneer PL-12D? Right now, I've got a Stanton 681 on the Technics 1200, and a Denon DL-110 on the Denon DP-51F.
The Pioneer is right now "cartridge-less." I could switch things around, but before I do that, I'm wondering if folks think the Pioneer and ADC would be a good or bad match.
Do folks think this would be a bad match with my Pioneer PL-12D? Right now, I've got a Stanton 681 on the Technics 1200, and a Denon DL-110 on the Denon DP-51F.
The Pioneer is right now "cartridge-less." I could switch things around, but before I do that, I'm wondering if folks think the Pioneer and ADC would be a good or bad match.
turbohippy
Active Member
Go put the Denon on the Technics - right this second :yes:
Best my 1200 has ever sounded...
Then I would go Stanton to the Pioneer, etc.
Best my 1200 has ever sounded...
Then I would go Stanton to the Pioneer, etc.
I think the Denon cart sounds better on my Denon turntable than it did on my Technics.
turbohippy
Active Member
Glad you tried it at least. Funny how that synergy thing works...
Oh yes, I know!
Btw, I just realized that early on in the thread, Stanton681EEES indicated that the XLM mkIII should be OK with the Pioneer arm since it's the later model XLM. Sorry, I completely overlooked this statement before I posted my last...duh.
musichal
poet emeritus
Always liked the look of the DP-51f, and sounds good, too. I'm thinking a DL-110 would look just fine on my Thorens, and right now that is my plan for the next cartridge. Still enjoying the Pearl, and not ordering soon, though.
Let's hear your thoughts on the ADC when you are ready - does it sound as good as I remember from long ago?
Let's hear your thoughts on the ADC when you are ready - does it sound as good as I remember from long ago?
Will do, Hal.
Quick follow-up question related to cart-arm matching.
If I understand it correctly, it's best to match less compliant carts with heavier mass arms, and vice versa. Right?
If so, I'm wondering how to best match up my various carts with my various arms.
Arms:
1. The Technics 1200 manual says the arm is 12g, making it medium-mass. It recommends a cart weighing 3.5-13g.
2. The Denon DP-51F manual does not list the arm weight, so not sure what mass it is. It recommends a cart weighing 3-12g.
3. The Pioneer PL-12D manual does not list the arm weight, so not sure what mass it is. It recommends a cart weighing 6.4-12g.
Carts:
1. The ADC XLM mkIII manual does not list the cart's compliance. It says it weighs 5.75 grams. This would seem to automatically make it a bad match with the Pioneer arm.
2. The Denon DL-110 manual says the cart's compliance is 8X10-6cm/N, making it low-compliance. This would seem to automatically make it a bad match with the medium-mass Technics arm.
3. The Stanton 681EEE manual does not list the cart's compliance, nor its weight. I'm not sure how this one is supposed to match up with any of the above arms, then.
Quick follow-up question related to cart-arm matching.
If I understand it correctly, it's best to match less compliant carts with heavier mass arms, and vice versa. Right?
If so, I'm wondering how to best match up my various carts with my various arms.
Arms:
1. The Technics 1200 manual says the arm is 12g, making it medium-mass. It recommends a cart weighing 3.5-13g.
2. The Denon DP-51F manual does not list the arm weight, so not sure what mass it is. It recommends a cart weighing 3-12g.
3. The Pioneer PL-12D manual does not list the arm weight, so not sure what mass it is. It recommends a cart weighing 6.4-12g.
Carts:
1. The ADC XLM mkIII manual does not list the cart's compliance. It says it weighs 5.75 grams. This would seem to automatically make it a bad match with the Pioneer arm.
2. The Denon DL-110 manual says the cart's compliance is 8X10-6cm/N, making it low-compliance. This would seem to automatically make it a bad match with the medium-mass Technics arm.
3. The Stanton 681EEE manual does not list the cart's compliance, nor its weight. I'm not sure how this one is supposed to match up with any of the above arms, then.
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The DP51F is a low mass straight arm... so best suited to high compliance cartridges (like the XLMIII)
Additionally the DP51F provides damping....
Unless the Technics has the KAB fluid damping trough fitted, I would definitely put the ADC on the Denon.
The DL110 is mid compliance and would theoretically work better with the mid mass S-Arms.
For a true comparison of how a cartridge matches up, try it out on the differing tables, but make sure the damping is OFF....
All combinations have a resonance.... and by matching we shift it to the optimal point/frequency (hopefully) - once we have it at the optimal frequency, we can then control the resonance further with damping.
So do your preliminary comparison with damping turned off, find the best match, and then add the damping to the mix to take it that notch further...
bye for now
David
Additionally the DP51F provides damping....
Unless the Technics has the KAB fluid damping trough fitted, I would definitely put the ADC on the Denon.
The DL110 is mid compliance and would theoretically work better with the mid mass S-Arms.
For a true comparison of how a cartridge matches up, try it out on the differing tables, but make sure the damping is OFF....
All combinations have a resonance.... and by matching we shift it to the optimal point/frequency (hopefully) - once we have it at the optimal frequency, we can then control the resonance further with damping.
So do your preliminary comparison with damping turned off, find the best match, and then add the damping to the mix to take it that notch further...
bye for now
David
musichal
poet emeritus
The ADC XLM III has a dynamic compliance of 33, rec TF .9-1.75 and wt 5.75 g.
The DL-110 : 8, 1.6-2.0, and 4.8g.
The 681eee: 20, .75-1.5, and 5.5g.
I'd try the 681 on the Pioneer, Denon on Denon, and ADC on Technics. (I saw dlaloum's rec after my post; he could be right; my rec was based on a semi-educated guess that the Denon is the lightest tonearm, the Pioneer massiest, and Technics in between; I believe either way would work, but I think the Denon cart too light for the Pioneer, so maybe it would be best to put the ADC on the Denon, and the Denon on the Technics..)
good info site, dave:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php
The DL-110 : 8, 1.6-2.0, and 4.8g.
The 681eee: 20, .75-1.5, and 5.5g.
I'd try the 681 on the Pioneer, Denon on Denon, and ADC on Technics. (I saw dlaloum's rec after my post; he could be right; my rec was based on a semi-educated guess that the Denon is the lightest tonearm, the Pioneer massiest, and Technics in between; I believe either way would work, but I think the Denon cart too light for the Pioneer, so maybe it would be best to put the ADC on the Denon, and the Denon on the Technics..)
good info site, dave:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php
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Hi Hal,
worth keeping in mind that the Denon's compliance is measured at 100Hz... the compliance at 10Hz is most like around 12cu.
The 681eee is also a high compliance design... but not as high as the XLM - the brush can help damp the resonance on the stanton's... making it a better match for something like the Technics.
I use VE a lot too - excellent reference!
worth keeping in mind that the Denon's compliance is measured at 100Hz... the compliance at 10Hz is most like around 12cu.
The 681eee is also a high compliance design... but not as high as the XLM - the brush can help damp the resonance on the stanton's... making it a better match for something like the Technics.
I use VE a lot too - excellent reference!
OK, thanks fellas. I will try the different combos out as you indicate and see what the results are.
I do find it interesting that the Denon cart sounds best (to my ears) on the Denon TT, even though they are not a compliance-mass match...it's the lowest compliance cart I have and the Denon TT's arm is the lightest. I remember hearing about others that were pleased with this combo as well. I've kind of stuck with it because the Denon cart isn't one of my favorites of those I've had, but it sounds the best with the Denon TT.
I would theoretically like to get the fluid damper that KAB offers for the Technics TT, but I find it more than slightly absurd that a little aluminum trough with some goopy fluid costs more than half of what I paid for the turntable itself. Is there a way to DIY a fluid damper for the Technics? I'd sort of like to try the ADC on the Technics, since it's my highest quality TT. But if they're a bad match, I won't do it.
Oh, and thanks for that reference, Hal. I like vinyl engine for downloading manuals and the printable cartridge protractor tools, but never took note of that part of the site before.
I do find it interesting that the Denon cart sounds best (to my ears) on the Denon TT, even though they are not a compliance-mass match...it's the lowest compliance cart I have and the Denon TT's arm is the lightest. I remember hearing about others that were pleased with this combo as well. I've kind of stuck with it because the Denon cart isn't one of my favorites of those I've had, but it sounds the best with the Denon TT.
I would theoretically like to get the fluid damper that KAB offers for the Technics TT, but I find it more than slightly absurd that a little aluminum trough with some goopy fluid costs more than half of what I paid for the turntable itself. Is there a way to DIY a fluid damper for the Technics? I'd sort of like to try the ADC on the Technics, since it's my highest quality TT. But if they're a bad match, I won't do it.
Oh, and thanks for that reference, Hal. I like vinyl engine for downloading manuals and the printable cartridge protractor tools, but never took note of that part of the site before.
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musichal
poet emeritus
Thanks for pointing that out - I knew they didn't all measure compliance at the same frequencies, but forgot to pay attention to that detail. I worked for a man who had double PhD's in engineering, ran a big research project, and owned a high-end audio business. He told me several times that compliance-matching specs weren't always predictive about what will sound best where, and - as you alluded earlier - listening was the key.