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Who first played Rock & Roll?
- Thread starter Dr. No-No
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sacrelcious
New Member
blues was with rock from the start. rock began as a mix of blues and southern gospel.
shortly thereafter...
when the white guys got into the act (elvis, buddy, jerry lee, etcetera) they added country. the white guys didn't know blues very well, but they knew country, so they basically switched the two, thus we have rockabilly. therefore rockabilly is a mix of southern gospel and country, with very little (although some) blues influence
some time later...
somebody decided that they were sick of the way older people looked down on rock, so they took an "if you can't beat them, join them" approach, and started to add classical influences. thus we are forever cursed with pretentious "progressive" rock, and obligatory orchestral performance cd's when bands get too big. this began some time in the mid sixties, and may even be the fault of the otherwise faultless Beatles.
a hop skip and a jump ahead...
rap, like rock, began as a medium of poor black kids, who couldn't afford musical instruments. turntables on the other hand were cheap (and already onwed by the perspective rappers family). so they developed scratching and sampling.
shortly thereafter...
when the white guys got into the act (elvis, buddy, jerry lee, etcetera) they added country. the white guys didn't know blues very well, but they knew country, so they basically switched the two, thus we have rockabilly. therefore rockabilly is a mix of southern gospel and country, with very little (although some) blues influence
some time later...
somebody decided that they were sick of the way older people looked down on rock, so they took an "if you can't beat them, join them" approach, and started to add classical influences. thus we are forever cursed with pretentious "progressive" rock, and obligatory orchestral performance cd's when bands get too big. this began some time in the mid sixties, and may even be the fault of the otherwise faultless Beatles.
a hop skip and a jump ahead...
rap, like rock, began as a medium of poor black kids, who couldn't afford musical instruments. turntables on the other hand were cheap (and already onwed by the perspective rappers family). so they developed scratching and sampling.
BlackSwamp
Previously DingusBoy
Not to get picky, But didn't the Moody Blues do the orchesta thing first. Days of Future Past sold like 4 copies initially but it found revitalized sales a couple years later. The Beatles stuff may have been influenced by them and in turn boosted their popularity.
Muddy Waters come to mind: "The Blues had a baby and they called it Rock & Roll,"
Blues re-established itself as "the" predominant influence during the British Invasion. The Beatles, The Stones, The Who, Eric Clapton, The Kinks were all greatly influenced by the likes of Waters, Big Bill Broonzy, Howlin' Wolf etc.
Muddy Waters come to mind: "The Blues had a baby and they called it Rock & Roll,"
Blues re-established itself as "the" predominant influence during the British Invasion. The Beatles, The Stones, The Who, Eric Clapton, The Kinks were all greatly influenced by the likes of Waters, Big Bill Broonzy, Howlin' Wolf etc.
Bill Haley and the Comets -- "Rock Around the Clock"
One of the first real "rock and roll" groups that I'm aware of, and it was about 1954, maybe 1955 ??
Definately before Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc. The Stones and the like were almost 10 years later.
Conway Twitty was originally a rock n roll guy, but crossed over to country in the early 60's
One of the first real "rock and roll" groups that I'm aware of, and it was about 1954, maybe 1955 ??
Definately before Elvis, Buddy Holly, etc. The Stones and the like were almost 10 years later.
Conway Twitty was originally a rock n roll guy, but crossed over to country in the early 60's
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sacrelcious
New Member
by all means, dingus, be picky. however if you are going to be picky you should make sure that you're being picky about things that I actually said.
I never said the Beatles were the first to use orchestration. I said they may have been the first to use classical influences.
I never said the Beatles were the first to use orchestration. I said they may have been the first to use classical influences.
I think that a good case could be made for Jelly Roll Morton's 1920s recordings being the first to truly rock and roll. And there are lots of jazz artists (Count Basie, Nat King Cole, etc.) who's late '40s / early '50s output is at least as important to the history of rock and roll as Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, and so on.
That being said, the relationship between blues, Appalacian folk, country and western, rock and roll, etc., remains murky, and some of our best contemporary musicologists are still trying to sort out all of the connections.
As far as "orchestral pop music" goes, I believe that the Beatles and the Moody Blues were working out their own versions of this genre at the same time in separate studios. But I really do not understand why these groups are often given all the credit for the genre. After all, a tremendous number of earlier Motown singles were quite orchestral. And Frank Sinatra's 1950's albums In the Wee Small Hours and Only the Lonely - both arranged by Nelson Riddle - were not only among the first orchestral pop albums to be recorded, but were also probably the first thematic albums ever produced.
That being said, the relationship between blues, Appalacian folk, country and western, rock and roll, etc., remains murky, and some of our best contemporary musicologists are still trying to sort out all of the connections.
As far as "orchestral pop music" goes, I believe that the Beatles and the Moody Blues were working out their own versions of this genre at the same time in separate studios. But I really do not understand why these groups are often given all the credit for the genre. After all, a tremendous number of earlier Motown singles were quite orchestral. And Frank Sinatra's 1950's albums In the Wee Small Hours and Only the Lonely - both arranged by Nelson Riddle - were not only among the first orchestral pop albums to be recorded, but were also probably the first thematic albums ever produced.
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sacrelcious
New Member
but could they really be called rock and roll? the motown stuff comes closest I guess, but r&b seems to me to be more of a cousin of rock than rock itself.
BlackSwamp
Previously DingusBoy
I'm not as clear on the dates as some. You may be right about the concurrentedness (how's that for a made up word) of the Beatles & the Moody Blues. But Days of Future Past swims in it where mid era Beatles seems to jump in, test the water and get out again.
I'm not saying either did it better, that's too subjective, but the Moody Blues took an incredible risk diving in that far that early.
The thing about the Beatles is musically they went anywhere and tried anything as good or better then anyone else.
And did Rock & Roll truly meet folk before Dylan plugged in?
I'm not saying either did it better, that's too subjective, but the Moody Blues took an incredible risk diving in that far that early.
The thing about the Beatles is musically they went anywhere and tried anything as good or better then anyone else.
And did Rock & Roll truly meet folk before Dylan plugged in?
You guys are doing great and giving us an education.
I would think one should look at the radio play sheets back in the late 50's and early 60's.
I always admired the " Stones" as they gave credit where credit is do. Unlike " Led Zep" they didn't steal songs. You can check court records for this info.
I have a favorite though.
His name is "Tangle-eye".
He was recorded by Lomax. He was in prison with " Leadbelly". Who we all know went on to become a " star" bluesman. I know he used the famous " three chords", back in the 20's-30's.
I guess there is a link between all of these "guys".
I just don't want anyone to forget them.
As the masses have Willie Dixon.
..Regards.....
.......Joe
I would think one should look at the radio play sheets back in the late 50's and early 60's.
I always admired the " Stones" as they gave credit where credit is do. Unlike " Led Zep" they didn't steal songs. You can check court records for this info.
I have a favorite though.
His name is "Tangle-eye".
He was recorded by Lomax. He was in prison with " Leadbelly". Who we all know went on to become a " star" bluesman. I know he used the famous " three chords", back in the 20's-30's.
I guess there is a link between all of these "guys".
I just don't want anyone to forget them.
As the masses have Willie Dixon.
..Regards.....
.......Joe
BlackSwamp
Previously DingusBoy
I'm with you on the "Stones." the London sessions are a prime (& enjoyable) example.
This oughta be fun. I've always thought Led Zepplin (Jimmy Page in particular) to be a bit arrogant and prententious. The whole YRGM crap is ridiculous. Jimmy Page could have easily put that rumor to rest but instead I still hear people who say he played that solo. He's also been known to be a real prick towards interested fans. It's like they wanted to be the 70's version of the Beatles. For my money I'll take 70's Stones, Who, Kinks, hell even ZZ Top or J. Geils.
The loop from hell: Stairway to Heaven, Free Bird & Hotel California. :uzi:
I found my soap box the other day.
I'll go hide now:zoom:
This oughta be fun. I've always thought Led Zepplin (Jimmy Page in particular) to be a bit arrogant and prententious. The whole YRGM crap is ridiculous. Jimmy Page could have easily put that rumor to rest but instead I still hear people who say he played that solo. He's also been known to be a real prick towards interested fans. It's like they wanted to be the 70's version of the Beatles. For my money I'll take 70's Stones, Who, Kinks, hell even ZZ Top or J. Geils.
The loop from hell: Stairway to Heaven, Free Bird & Hotel California. :uzi:
I found my soap box the other day.
I'll go hide now:zoom:
I guess I'd draw more of a line between "rock music" (e.g., early '70s Who) and R&B than between "rock and roll music" and R&B. Otherwise, how exactly would someone categorize the early Stones?
And no, I wouldn't call Sinatra's 1950s albums rock and roll, but one could use that label to describe some of Nat King Cole's early trio recordings, for example. And both Morton and Basie truly did both rock AND roll - and far more convincingly than, say, Billy Joel or Lenny Kravitz ever have...
I would have to agree that the Moody Blues were far more committed to the genre than the Beatles, who were never content to stay put for more than a year or two.
I also think that a song like "Nights in White Satin" is a far more convincing example of symphonic rock than anything the Beatles did during 1967. After all, would a song like "She's Leaving Home" have ever been called rock music if it hadn't been recorded by a rock band?
Regarding folk rock, I think that the Byrds deserve at least as much credit for the creation of this genre as Bob Dylan. And don't forget that the Beatles were also creating folk rock songs like "Help" back in early '65 - although, to be fair, many of these songs have a Dylanesque feel to them (especially Lennon's "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away").
BlackSwamp
Previously DingusBoy
I find the Beatles(BRitish Invasion)/Dylan interplay fascinating.
I'm not a student of Pop Culture but those influences seem to bounce off each other and fed much of what happened to rock in the late 60's early 70's.
The Beatles (especially John & George) were strongly influenced by Dylan. Dylan's poetic mastery pushed those British bands into writing a more sophisticated lyric. Ray Davies also seems to have had a hand in this with his early sarcastic Sunny Afternnon, Dedicated Follower of Fasion, and Well Respected Man. I can't imagine John ever writing Yer Blues unless their was a Dylan writing Don't Thin Twice before him.
Paradoxically, Dylan may have never upset all the folks at Newport without seeing the direction the Beatles were headed. We forget how HUGE he was as a solo artist and what an incredible career risk he took. the pop/rock influence forced him to tighten up song composition (at times) and play in beat. Something he still struggles with according to some.
The Band then incorporated the traditional American sound into all of this (with and w/o Dylan) in a bit of a counter to the classical/glam direction others were headed. Listen to the Basement tapes: there is something totally new, yet totally familar going on there. Amazing.
Sincerely,
Dingus Wilbury
I'm not a student of Pop Culture but those influences seem to bounce off each other and fed much of what happened to rock in the late 60's early 70's.
The Beatles (especially John & George) were strongly influenced by Dylan. Dylan's poetic mastery pushed those British bands into writing a more sophisticated lyric. Ray Davies also seems to have had a hand in this with his early sarcastic Sunny Afternnon, Dedicated Follower of Fasion, and Well Respected Man. I can't imagine John ever writing Yer Blues unless their was a Dylan writing Don't Thin Twice before him.
Paradoxically, Dylan may have never upset all the folks at Newport without seeing the direction the Beatles were headed. We forget how HUGE he was as a solo artist and what an incredible career risk he took. the pop/rock influence forced him to tighten up song composition (at times) and play in beat. Something he still struggles with according to some.
The Band then incorporated the traditional American sound into all of this (with and w/o Dylan) in a bit of a counter to the classical/glam direction others were headed. Listen to the Basement tapes: there is something totally new, yet totally familar going on there. Amazing.
Sincerely,
Dingus Wilbury
Toasted Almond
RIP 1952-2016
I would characterize the early Stones like this:
"Brian Jones' Band of English White Guys, Who Want to Sound Like Chicago Black Guys".
Those early Stones albums are the damn cats whiskers. IMHO, by the time the Glitter Twins arrived, it was over.
Dingus, I have most of The Band's stuff, and that second release, "The Band", is ABOUT as good as it gets.
Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF
"Brian Jones' Band of English White Guys, Who Want to Sound Like Chicago Black Guys".
Those early Stones albums are the damn cats whiskers. IMHO, by the time the Glitter Twins arrived, it was over.
Dingus, I have most of The Band's stuff, and that second release, "The Band", is ABOUT as good as it gets.
Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF
Thatch_Ear
Addicted Member
If you really want to trace rock and blues I think you have to take a very close look at the guitar. Most of everything that happened for at least untill Les Paul and the major change in sound from the acoustic to the electric guitar can be traced to Django Rienhardt. Jazz, Blues, Stride, Rock a Billy and everything but classical. The odd order harmonics that bepop evolved from and rock all came from this source. The guitar is the instrument that made the bridge from Satchmo's coronet to Elvis' Rockabilly.
Yes, a lot of things came into the mainstream and added subtle changes, but Hendrix would have been impossible without Django and Les.
You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose..........but leave my ax alone!!!!!
Yes, a lot of things came into the mainstream and added subtle changes, but Hendrix would have been impossible without Django and Les.
You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose..........but leave my ax alone!!!!!
Thatch, with all due respect.
Many people in prison didn't have access to a guitar.
You can hear chopping wood, driving spikes, providing the bass for some important works.
Listen to some of Son House early recordings.
Of course. the names always change....
..but the sound is the same...
..Regards....
.Joe
Many people in prison didn't have access to a guitar.
You can hear chopping wood, driving spikes, providing the bass for some important works.
Listen to some of Son House early recordings.
Of course. the names always change....
..but the sound is the same...
..Regards....
.Joe
DingusBoy and Toasted Almond,
If you like the Band, I would also suggest that you check out Fairport Convention. While the Band was forging its own brand of American folk rock, Fairport Convention was merging British folk music with rock and roll. And while I love both of these groups, I find the Fairports to be much more interesting both musically and lyrically...
Some additional information about Fairport Convention:
1) Bob Dylan was an early fan of this group, and gave them some phenomenal songs to record (such as "Percy's Song") that he himself never officially released.
2) Fairport Convention was the springboard for Richard Thompson and the late great Sandy Denny.
3) The "essential" Fairport Convention recordings are their second, third, and fourth albums - namely, "What We Did On Our Holidays", "Unhalfbricking", and "Liege And Lief". Each of these albums has been claimed by more than one music critic to be among the best rock albums ever made. My own personal favorite would have to be "Unhalfbricking".
Happy listening,
Brian
If you like the Band, I would also suggest that you check out Fairport Convention. While the Band was forging its own brand of American folk rock, Fairport Convention was merging British folk music with rock and roll. And while I love both of these groups, I find the Fairports to be much more interesting both musically and lyrically...
Some additional information about Fairport Convention:
1) Bob Dylan was an early fan of this group, and gave them some phenomenal songs to record (such as "Percy's Song") that he himself never officially released.
2) Fairport Convention was the springboard for Richard Thompson and the late great Sandy Denny.
3) The "essential" Fairport Convention recordings are their second, third, and fourth albums - namely, "What We Did On Our Holidays", "Unhalfbricking", and "Liege And Lief". Each of these albums has been claimed by more than one music critic to be among the best rock albums ever made. My own personal favorite would have to be "Unhalfbricking".
Happy listening,
Brian
BlackSwamp
Previously DingusBoy
Brian:
Thanks for the info, I will check into them. I've heard good things about Fairport Convention before but for some reason (probably related to faulty wiring in my brain) have never purchased anything.
I recently purchased my first Little Feat LP. I like it. I think they deserve a deeper listen as well.
Thanks for the info, I will check into them. I've heard good things about Fairport Convention before but for some reason (probably related to faulty wiring in my brain) have never purchased anything.
I recently purchased my first Little Feat LP. I like it. I think they deserve a deeper listen as well.
Sandy G
Retired Member
What about Muddy Waters ? And there was a song in the early '50s-"Rocket 88"- I can't remember who did it-that was VERY early rock 'n' roll. For you young whippersnappers, a Rocket 88 was an Oldsmobile that had a big-303 cubic inches-V-8 in a smaller bodied car. Kinda the Civic of its day.-Sandy G.