Why are Tubes "thought" to sound better than SS

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electroking said:
I'm all for good tube amplifiers, but this claim is ridiculous! I trust
it is being made in good faith, but it is still untrue.

Transistors in most amplifiers are operated in a linear regime, just like tubes.
Transistors can be used as switching, non-linear devices (there are
millions of them doing it right now for us in our computers
and in the AudioKarma servers), but so can tubes as they were in the
early electronic computers.
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one only has to listen once and every thing is clear.
 
From a design and build aspect,tubes have opened a new world for me (load lines, transformers, etc). Nothin like rolling tubes and seeing how the sound differs. You can do that with opamps but it just isnt the same. Also plugging in a tube built in 1958 and having it play without issue is just amazing.
 
My vote for tubes.... since getting into them I find myself saying "gotta spin just one more side"... each small tweak means listening to all my records...again!.... there is gold in those grooves.....then there's the idea that 50 years ago a note slid down Claptons guitar string through a Marshal bluesbreaker, was captured on vinyl and now that same sound is re emerging through my amp through the same type 50 year old Genalex KT66 tube....now that's cool.
Cheers,
Kirk
 
NYListens said:
I would like to hear from anyone who thinks tubes sound horrible.
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I'm sure they exist. Everyone has their preferences. Tubes definitely do sound different than transisitor amps. Whether its good or bad is purely a subjective matter, and best left to the individual to decide.

I greatly enjoy tinkering with the technology. Its far less about the actual sound it produces than the magic behind it.
 
bi-amplify, BIG S.S on the LF & tubes on the mids and HF. try it, you will like it.....

OR, the best tube pre you can afford, with a s.s amp.... both work for me.

ultimately, " what ever floats your boat "

regards
 
NYListens said:
I would like to hear from anyone who thinks tubes sound horrible.
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It depends upon the tube equipment. Some does sound really horrible.

I feel that the best SS equipment and the best tube equipment sounds much alike. It sounds neutral and you can't really tell whether it's tube or SS from listening to it.
 
gregswaim said:
I go to a lot of live shows-rock,jazz,blues, classical,& musicals. Big arenas, small venues,hole-in the wall clubs,and everything in between.
I don't recall ever seeing any rock,blues,or jazz musicians using anything other than tube amps on stage. If you like the sound from a live show then tubes are the way to go.
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The amps they are using are part of their "instrument." They help create the sound, not just reproduce sound.

Or are you saying that we need to add lots of tube distortion at home, just like they do on stage? :)
 
I have tube amps and SS.....they both sound wonderful. You can voice both types with different brand tubes and with SS...capacitors. But there is a reason why tube amps sound better to some listeners and this quote explains it partialy better than I can....

"The key advantage of a vacuum tube stereo system compared to a solid state one, is that I can listen to the vacuum tube system for hours and hours at high volume without any fatigue. This is due to the predominance of second order harmonics in the tube system compared to third order harmonics in the solid state system.
Second order harmonics are much softer in nature. In contrast, third order harmonics are harder in nature. "

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ta/vacuumtube_e.html

Of course SS can be listened to without harshness or fatigue...I know because I can listen all day and night to my SS amp....
 
stuartk said:
It depends upon the tube equipment. Some does sound really horrible.

I feel that the best SS equipment and the best tube equipment sounds much alike. It sounds neutral and you can't really tell whether it's tube or SS from listening to it.
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Beat me to it on that comment. While my tube gear and SS don't sound exactly the same I doubt that most people would instantly recognize that one system was tube and the other SS blindfolded. Yes, the tube gear is that tiny bit sweeter, but other than that there are no audible clues one way other or the other. Good sounding audio can be had either way. Mostly it seems to be a matter of finding pieces that don't have a really strong sound signature of their own and getting them to play nice with each other. That's how my taste runs at any rate. I know some folks like their gear to have a very strong character (and that's just fine), but I listen to a lot of classical and jazz and particularly with the classical stuff if it doesn't sound to me like it does when I'm in rehearsal or performance I'm not going to be an involved and happy listener. I have both tube and SS gear that can do that for me, so I'm a happy camper.:thmbsp:
 
I have both and like both. I can work on and repair the tube equipment - the SS stuff baffles me. The tubes look better cause I like the glow (That's my personal preference so that's why it is better). At lower levels both types (if they are good quality) sound about the same to me. At higher levels I tend to like the tubes better and this is comparing 25 to 35 watts of tube amp to 90 watts of SS amp.

I have (rightly or wrongly) come to the conclusion that its all about the way the amps clip and about my being able to fix them.

By the way, in the amps I have seen, there are usually more devices in the signal path of a SS amp then a tube amp. That may or may not have an impact as well.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!:tresbon:
 
Whenever you're searching for those wide variations, it really all comes down to having the right tool for the right job.

Second order harmonics are generally excellent for solo instruments that produce a smoother waveform than others. The smooth waveform would be generated from something able to closely resemble a sine wave.

That's why a piano (no, not a honky-tonk type with notes being several cents out of tune) sounds excellent when tubes present those second order jewels. The same holds true for a jazz quartet. Piano, bass, guitar, and drums.

Much depends on the recording production itself; but, if you're only into speed death metal with fully distorted screaming vocals. . . don't expect too much tonal variation between tubes and solid state.

. . Falcon
 
Tubes multiply even order harmonics and solid state multiplies all harmonics including those not meant to be heard. Tubes always sound better to me from My ham Linear to my 80 watt home stereo amp. I can always tell when a fellow ham is operating with a solid state top of the line amp because they all sound edgy:yes:.

-Mike
 
It aint the tubes

Hi all,
I just joined this forum so that I could put in my 2 cents about this thread.

I would respectfully say that it is not the tubes that sound better, it's the fact that a tube amp has to use a transformer. It's the transformer that inherently sounds "better". As so many on this thread have pointed out, a tube is just another analog device with a transfer function, pretty linear in the middle of it's range, but so are a lot of transistors. AND OF COURSE, it's the design that makes the difference, transistor or tube.

Now, why do (properly designed) transformer (tube) amps sound so good?

1. Transformers have a passband and act as a filter on frequencies that are out of that range. High frequency artifacts that are out of hearing range, seem to none the less affect our perception of sound quality. The transformer gets rid of these in a very gracious manner. The proof of this is that you can take a "digital" sounding signal, and at line level, run it through a quality line transformer, such as a Deane Jensen, and it will sound noticeably better and more tube like, especially if you push the limits of the transformer.

2. Transformers act as a compressor. People like the sound of a good compressor. The two most sought after vintage devices in the recording studio world are preamps and compressors. EVERY great recording will have various compressors used in the mixing process and usually even more compression used in the mastering process. The trick in the design of a tube amp is to have the transformer well into it's compression range, just as the tubes are beginning to clip. It's a dynamic transfer function that is not measurable with normal methods of measuring distortion like IM or THD. This is why a good 35 watt tube amp will play way louder than, and sound good doing it, a 35 watt transistor amp.

3. Transformers add even harmonic distortion, especially in a PP design. Solid state amps without transformers tend to add odd harmonic distortion. 2nd and 4th (and so on) harmonic distortion sounds GOOD to our ears. Odd harmonic distortion sounds really bad, even in very small amounts. That's why a good tube amp might have distortion figures of 1-5% at high levels and a transistor amp, to sound good, must have levels of IM and THD that are 1/10th to 1/1000th of a good tube amp.

Musical instruments mostly make even order harmonics. The exception is string instruments such as violin, cello, etc. They have lots of odd harmonics and that is why the good ones are worth a fortune. they have a balance of harmonics that sound good. Just a little bit of "wrongness" in harmonic content of a violin and it sounds terrible. It's the difference between a Stradivarious and a cheap student instrument.

4. Transformers, much more than the tube itself, add a group delay or, phase vs. frequency, signature to their transfer function. A transformer is an inductive device that is being asked to work over 1000:1 frequency range. Phase distortion is the result, but, it seems to be in a way that is pleasing to the ear.

Deane Jensen was the pre eminent transformer design guy in the pro audio world. I knew Deane and was privy to his design process. He talked about all of the above and much more when discussing transformers.

So, why are tubes "better"? Cause they use transformers as the last element in the chain, before the signal goes to the speakers. That's why.
 
Trnsfmr said:
Hi all,
I just joined this forum so that I could put in my 2 cents about this thread.

I would respectfully say that it is not the tubes that sound better, it's the fact that a tube amp has to use a transformer. It's the transformer that inherently sounds "better". As so many on this thread have pointed out, a tube is just another analog device with a transfer function, pretty linear in the middle of it's range, but so are a lot of transistors. AND OF COURSE, it's the design that makes the difference, transistor or tube.

Now, why do (properly designed) transformer (tube) amps sound so good?

1. Transformers have a passband and act as a filter on frequencies that are out of that range. High frequency artifacts that are out of hearing range, seem to none the less affect our perception of sound quality. The transformer gets rid of these in a very gracious manner. The proof of this is that you can take a "digital" sounding signal, and at line level, run it through a quality line transformer, such as a Deane Jensen, and it will sound noticeably better and more tube like, especially if you push the limits of the transformer.

2. Transformers act as a compressor. People like the sound of a good compressor. The two most sought after vintage devices in the recording studio world are preamps and compressors. EVERY great recording will have various compressors used in the mixing process and usually even more compression used in the mastering process. The trick in the design of a tube amp is to have the transformer well into it's compression range, just as the tubes are beginning to clip. It's a dynamic transfer function that is not measurable with normal methods of measuring distortion like IM or THD. This is why a good 35 watt tube amp will play way louder than, and sound good doing it, a 35 watt transistor amp.

3. Transformers add even harmonic distortion, especially in a PP design. Solid state amps without transformers tend to add odd harmonic distortion. 2nd and 4th (and so on) harmonic distortion sounds GOOD to our ears. Odd harmonic distortion sounds really bad, even in very small amounts. That's why a good tube amp might have distortion figures of 1-5% at high levels and a transistor amp, to sound good, must have levels of IM and THD that are 1/10th to 1/1000th of a good tube amp.

Musical instruments mostly make even order harmonics. The exception is string instruments such as violin, cello, etc. They have lots of odd harmonics and that is why the good ones are worth a fortune. they have a balance of harmonics that sound good. Just a little bit of "wrongness" in harmonic content of a violin and it sounds terrible. It's the difference between a Stradivarious and a cheap student instrument.

4. Transformers, much more than the tube itself, add a group delay or, phase vs. frequency, signature to their transfer function. A transformer is an inductive device that is being asked to work over 1000:1 frequency range. Phase distortion is the result, but, it seems to be in a way that is pleasing to the ear.

Deane Jensen was the pre eminent transformer design guy in the pro audio world. I knew Deane and was privy to his design process. He talked about all of the above and much more when discussing transformers.

So, why are tubes "better"? Cause they use transformers as the last element in the chain, before the signal goes to the speakers. That's why.
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Couldn't resist could ya?

I'm still a newbie when it comes to tubes and I'll probably always be. This technical stuff is over my head. I did appreciate your insights, well written. But I have one question, why do people "roll" tubes? I've started doing this recently and some tubes "sound better" than others?

btw... I enjoyed the movie Transformers. :D

Welcome ot AK.
 
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