Why don't all electronics need voodoo rituals to function properly?

I have a problem, because I majored in psychology, with emphasis on the experimental side. I helped a professor do some original research on "subjective colors," colors induced by moving bands of black and white.

What I learned forty years ago has just been reinforced by recent research. People have an almost infinite capacity to see and hear things that aren't there.

To be fair, they also have the capacity to learn to see and hear things that are usually overlooked.

I say there's a light side and a dark side to this. the light side is that you can choose to listen to music, even when the source has defects. The dark side is you can train yourself to hear the defects and exaggerate their importance.

My personal opinion is that anything that can't be demonstrated by instruments and isn't obvious in double blind tests is so marginal that people would be happier and better off training themselves to ignore it.

This isn't a rant against striving for perfection. It's a rant against training oneself to be unhappy. You have a choice. You can pay attention to the good things in life or you can obsess over imperfections.

You can also choose to prefer scientific investigation to marketing hype. Open or disguised as reviews.

What a great post.... I find it funny that the most demanding people are usually the least happy in life, and they obsess about everything, then wonder why nothing ever goes their way after they have stepped all over everyone's toes..
 
I've got nothing against trying tweak gear if the price doesn't hurt your budget. That's why I'm here. Because I find stuff at good prices that used to be someone's tweak gear.

Oddly enough, some of it used to be the ultimate. Now it's just garage sale and thrift store junk.
 
Break in does occur. IMO the most break-in-able item is the speaker and conversely if you are recording, the microphone. It’s the stiff connections of the transducer elements that need to loosen up a bit, like speaker surrounds…. Next is the vacuum tube. New tubes will soften up a bit after tens of hours of running. As the filament boils off electrons some metal will be boiled off too, All the contaminates in a tube will change the chemistry of every part in the tube over time. The high transconductance tubes like the 6DJ8 other wideband Russian tubes will show break in sooner than say a 12ax7. Plus I think the newer manufactured tubes are not burned in as stringently as a vintage RCA. Or the like, tubes were. Next is the electrolytic capacitor. As it is heated up and charged and discharged the oil will change chemistry. As for things like resistors or wire or film capacitors – I have never been able to hear or measure what others claim about break in. I have never done the Teflon capacitor thing so the claim of many many many hours of break in for those are out of my realm. And for good reason, I don’t’ care for some part that is a pain to get, expensive and takes sooooooooooo long to supposedly work at peak performance. I will find a way to get around something like that.

I think a large part (not all) of break in is the brain/ear connection breaking in. Ever heard a song that was new, you didn’t like or get it, then later be it days, weeks or years you like that song and get what it is about. Wellllllll? You don’t think the same phenomenon could happen with system sonics? Common! Admit it!
 
Oddly enough, some of it used to be the ultimate. Now it's just garage sale and thrift store junk.

Thanks as that answers a question that's been bugging me. I have a friend who is a dyed in the wool audiophile type. Every time I go to his house he touts some absolutely "amazing" thing he's found that makes his system sound "phenomenal" and that cannot be done without. Funny thing though, I'll go over a month later and that device has suddenly disappeared, and has been replaced by a different "amazing/phenomenal" device. I always wondered where the other stuff went.....
 
Important Points

I have a problem, because I majored in psychology, with emphasis on the experimental side. I helped a professor do some original research on "subjective colors," colors induced by moving bands of black and white.

What I learned forty years ago has just been reinforced by recent research. People have an almost infinite capacity to see and hear things that aren't there.

To be fair, they also have the capacity to learn to see and hear things that are usually overlooked.

I say there's a light side and a dark side to this. the light side is that you can choose to listen to music, even when the source has defects. The dark side is you can train yourself to hear the defects and exaggerate their importance.

My personal opinion is that anything that can't be demonstrated by instruments and isn't obvious in double blind tests is so marginal that people would be happier and better off training themselves to ignore it.

This isn't a rant against striving for perfection. It's a rant against training oneself to be unhappy. You have a choice. You can pay attention to the good things in life or you can obsess over imperfections.

You can also choose to prefer scientific investigation to marketing hype. Open or disguised as reviews.

These are important things to discuss. When on the mission of attaining the best possible sound, it becomes easy to notice what is wrong and what you want to change, rather than appreciate what is good about a system. This can also occur when you have a friends system that you like a lot, and it does something different than what yours does. Or you make purchases based on what you can afford, and you believe that components up the food chain are inherently superior. You are priming yourself for dissatisfaction.

This happens to many "audiophiles" who view audio as a contest or a holy grail quest. Possibly some poeple have a predisposition to noticing what is not right, or they have they have a negative kant to their personality. Its easy to get into the trap that there is better than what you have. But on the other side of the coin, there usually is better out there, the question is can you afford it, do you even want it, or are you willing to sacrifice to get it. At what point do you become satisfied?

Part of the equation is the ability to be objective, which is a hard thing to do. Often we buy audio gear thinking its going to be better than what we have, and so our perceptions say it is. But if you can be objective, then you can make solid observations.

Case in point. I have formed the opinion that damping fluid, such as silicone, in a tone arm kills the dynamics and subtle nuances of the music. The leading edge of transients get blunted. My new tone arm has a cup for damping fluid that rests under the pivot point. I first set the arm up without fluid, which the builder recommends. But I had a slight mechanical mismatch between the arm and cartridge, the resonance frequency of the arm is low, and the cartridge is slightly to compliant. Ended up with footfall problems, due to this mismatch. I filled the cup to the recommended point and my footfall problems went away. But the music lost its dynamic contrasts,things became too smooth. Aha the evils of damping fluid! My opinions were validated right? Well I started to remove fluid in increments, till the point where it was on the edge of having footfall issues. Pretty happy with the results, no footfalls, and I believed I had the dynamic shadings of the music back. But to be sure, since it could be done, I completely removed the cup, and did an A/B versus the two configurations. Found out that yes the fluid still compromised dynamic contrasts a hair, but there were other benefits to it. I ended up preferring to have the cup in place with a minimal amount of fluid in it. Being objective allowed me to make the proper choice in set up.

In theory I agree with double blind testing. But in practice, I never see it run properly. The use of switch boxes obscures subtle differences, and no one seems to build a cost no object one that does proper impedance buffering in order to have a properly balanced test. Getting speakers in the right place for a listening room, and removing the unused pair never seems to get done either. A/B a turntable that uses the same cartridge, and a good one, and same tone arm doesn't happen. Its expensive and complicated to run a proper double blind test. Yet people who claim it needs to be done use it as a test for other people to prove their expensive component is superior to a cheaper one. Yet I never hear of them running the test as a means to choose their own components. The methodology of doing a double blind or even single blind is expensive and difficult.

But yes, having the proper mind set of being objective is paramount in evaluating audio equipment. Being introspective and understanding yourself and your biases and your preconceptions goes a long ways to getting value out of this hobby.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
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I agree rebuilt older motors need some break in, but on a new car, Chevy or otherwise you don't have to do anything but drive it. No changing the oil after 50 miles, no running it at 2500prm. Maybe they do it at the factory, but I doubt they go through all of that. There are some rather simple break in procedures for new cars, but it's understandable when you consider how much more sophisticated a car engine is, and how tight the tolerances are compared to a pair of speakers and an amp.

When I bought my car, I had to take it in at 1,000 miles for oil change, tranny fluid change and diff change.
 
In theory I agree with double blind testing. But in practice, I never see it run properly. The use of switch boxes obscures subtle differences, and no one seems to build a cost no object one that does proper impedance buffering in order to have a properly balanced test. Getting speakers in the right place for a listening room, and removing the unused pair never seems to get done either.

I'm pretty sure they've covered the major issues here. http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/07/harman-kardons-quest-to-standardise.html
 
I firmly believe that this whole "burn-in" nonsense was started by the manufacturers because too many people opened up their new stuff, plugged it in and thought to themselves, "Wow! This sounds exactly like the old POS that I already had!" and returned it.

:yikes::dammit::yikes::dammit::yikes::dammit:
 
I also scoffed at the break in voodoo a while back. Then I acquired a new pair of ohm walshes. That all it took to make a believer out of me. Maybe other speakers and electronics don't have a break in period; who knows. But I do know that walsh speakers sure do.
 
I have no doubt a speaker changes sound after buying them new, or refoaming or reconing.. but to say you have to wire them out of phase, place them face to face and play a 40hz test tone for 40 hours before using them is hogwash..

The sound changing isn't burning them in.. it's the strange things they tell you to do before listening that is the voodoo..
 
I think this thread will end up in TOL before this is over.

I don't have much experience with this sort of thing, but i did notice the first time i powered up my recapped R2R, it sounded kinda harsh. But after a couple hours it sounded pretty much like it always did. Now i notice no difference from old sound to new sound. So maybe that was an example of a "burn in" period. But a few hours to me doesn't seem like much to get worked up over.

I can accept that speakers need some work out time, but speakers are a mechanical device, not just electrical. Anything that has to move to work may need time to get into the motions, so to speak. But things like wires and cables???? Unless you are running them really hot, (which i would think is a fire hazard) i don't see why anything should change with them electrically or chemically.
 
I also scoffed at the break in voodoo a while back. Then I acquired a new pair of ohm walshes. That all it took to make a believer out of me. Maybe other speakers and electronics don't have a break in period; who knows. But I do know that walsh speakers sure do.
Speakers most certainly do... they are a mechanical device that will definitely change, and this can be easily measured in the t/s parameters. However, this break in won't take the ridiculous number of hours that the speaker manufacturer claims in most cases. Running a woofer at or near x-max in free air will loosen up the suspension in a matter of hours. Obviously at normal listening levels, this will take substantially longer, but in my experience, about the only difference is that once the woofer breaks in, your lower bass response will improve a bit. I don't feel that mids and tweeters move enough for their moving parts to really exhibit any noticeable changes.
 
I can believe it's physically possible for electrolytic caps to change value in storage.

I took courses (Army, correspondence, community college) in electronic repair, and was told that electrolytics will last longer in use than in storage.

Could be BS, but it was based on the same ideas about chemistry that describe batteries going bad in storage. As I say, I don't know if this is real or folklore.
 
Generally speaking, most people just don't take enough science courses in university...

That being said, thread closing in 3, 2, 1... :D
 
I firmly believe that this whole "burn-in" nonsense was started by the manufacturers because too many people opened up their new stuff, plugged it in and thought to themselves, "Wow! This sounds exactly like the old POS that I already had!" and returned it. Enter the "burn-in" theory. Now when you open that new box, you already have diminished expectations, combined with the psychological placebo effect that WILL make it sound better if you want it to. This break-in period gives you time to become acclimated to the sound, giving you the chance to subconsciously forget about whatever previous sound you had become emotionally bonded to. And lastly, it means you'll hold on to the product beyond the buyer's remorse (and allowable return) period.

I grew up in my dad's body shop. A long time ago I asked him why he told everybody to wait 30 days before they wax the car... what effect did waxing have on the new paint? He said, "nothing. It's so that they don't find a little imperfection and wind up unhappy with their new paint job. Nobody notices those spots after a month."

As someone who deals with paint issues in new cars, I need to add this. There is a curing process that all automotive finishes go through. To seal off the air from the paint before it is totally cured is a real issue, and I would hope that a professional body man took more pride in his work than to take that stance, in hopes that imperfection might be overlooked.:scratch2:
Just my opinion of course, worth about 2 cents at the going rate.:D
Regards,
Jim
 
Car subwoofer amps are the only thing that I think needs a "burn in".
When you buy a new subwoofer amp it sounds harsh at first but after its been run for about 30hrs it starts to sound more smooth and relaxed.
Experience knowledge :D
 
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