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Why no affordable direct drives like in the 80's?

Dr Tinear said:
Um ... not quite. Look at the wow and flutter specs, which are 0.1% on the best of these DJ turntables and 0.2% to 0.25% on the worst, and compare them to the 0.025% WRMS spec (JIS C5521 test method) for the Technics SL-1200 Mk2. Wow and flutter 4 to 10 times higher than the real thing doesn't qualify as remotely similar, IMO. It may be low enough that you don't hear it, since people differ in their sensitivity to flutter and musical genres differ in their ability to reveal it, but rest assured that some of us out there would hear that high flutter on some music and would find it objectionable.

The new Reloop turntable that DustyOldPile mentioned a few posts back might be an exception to my generalization. If so, it's a welcome one.
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I'm almost afraid to ask, but what does wow and flutter sound like?

Maybe I don't want to know, because I own one of those 0.1% TTs. :sigh:
 
DustyOldPile any improvement in the level of quality and performance by Hanpin and other mfgs would have to come at a price that few here at AK would be willing to pay. The demand might be there but the reality is few are willing to spend the serious money it would cost to mfg turntables to the same standards as those produced circ 1980 by the major Japanese audio companies. Figuring general inflation and best cases a turntable similar to the common Japanese lower midfi models of 1980 would probably run around $1200 today. Hanpin or other mfgs are probably capable but see little need to change what's presently working and very profitable with minimal investment on their part. As for Reloop knowing the Germans the OEM Hanpin tables were not up to even DJ standards and needed serious modification. Possibly Reloop will go further some day and modify the Hanpin tables to consumer/home standards but I doubt this will come cheaply.
 
dr tinear said:
i posted some information on that 0.01% number in your "are you ready to rumble?" thread. To recap, that number matches the wrms spec of the technics sl-1200 mk2. Technics also quoted specs of 0.025% when their 'table was measured as specified in jis c5521 and 0.035% weighted peak when measured as specified in iec 98a. The 0.01% number is almost certainly derived from measurements of the error signal in the servo loop and won't be achieved in the real world where records are neither perfectly centered nor perfectly flat.

I'd like to see a comprehensive instrumented test of the reloop turntable in addition to a subjective review. If reloop's oem, hanpin, has actually managed to produce a dd system that approaches the performance of the technics 1200, that's good news indeed. Maybe they can concentrate on the tonearm next and figure out how to make an anti-skate system that works.
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+1!


Majick47: DustyOldPile any improvement in the level of quality and performance by Hanpin and other mfgs would have to come at a price that few here at AK would be willing to pay. The demand might be there but the reality is few are willing to spend the serious money it would cost to mfg turntables to the same standards as those produced circ 1980 by the major Japanese audio companies. Figuring general inflation and best cases a turntable similar to the common Japanese lower midfi models of 1980 would probably run around $1200 today. Hanpin or other mfgs are probably capable but see little need to change what's presently working and very profitable with minimal investment on their part. As for Reloop knowing the Germans the OEM Hanpin tables were not up to even DJ standards and needed serious modification. Possibly Reloop will go further some day and modify the Hanpin tables to consumer/home standards but I doubt this will come cheaply.
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I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Reloop probably is doing just that. We'll see if they ever come out with a 'listener' deck rather than a 'DJ' one. Anything is possible, though I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
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Nothing directly to do with turntables but it might be food for thought re mfg standards. My brother who worked for Zerox for many years told me of his tour of the Zerox mfg facility in upstate NY. The management person giving the tour advised my brother that it wasn't easy operating with a less than flexible union shop workers that assembled the Zerox machines. My brother was involved in the servicing and warranty work for Zerox. Anyways the new Zerox machines were also shipped to Japan and subsequently had to be torn down and rebuilt by Zerox Japan to meet Japanese standards of fit/finish/function to be competitive with Japanese mfg copiers. I suspect the same is occurring with Reloop in Germany another country with high mfg standards that has to rebuild the Hanpin turntables to meet minimal DJ standards let alone meet home/consumer standards. As with anything coming out of Japan, Germany, Switzerland the attention to detail with a highly trained/educated/motivated workforce in modern mfg facilities doesn't come cheap and will not be affordable for consumers of Walmart and Amazon products.
 
kermit z said:
Don't even worry about it if you don't hear a problem.
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That's the thing. I just put a new AT440MLa cart on my TT, and it sounds great.

But I noticed playing a used but fairly clean copy of Linda Ronstadt's Simple Dreams that the instruments sound awesome, but the vocals sound a little "harsh", like she's singing into a low-quality mic. I chalked this up to possible groove damage on the $2 copy I was playing, so I bought another clean copy and the vocals sound exactly the same.

Could excessive wow and flutter cause certain vocals to sound harsh/distorted?
 
DaverJ said:
That's the thing. I just put a new AT440MLa cart on my TT, and it sounds great.

But I noticed playing a used but fairly clean copy of Linda Ronstadt's Simple Dreams that the instruments sound awesome, but the vocals sound a little "harsh", like she's singing into a low-quality mic. I chalked this up to possible groove damage on the $2 copy I was playing, so I bought another clean copy and the vocals sound exactly the same.

Could excessive wow and flutter cause certain vocals to sound harsh/distorted?
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It could just be the recording or the pressing. Try some other records.
 
No, I do not believe your hearing wow and flutter. Could be the recording, could be your set up needs tweaking.
 
It definitely wouldn't be w&f causing harshness, mistaking or tracing problems more likely if not the disc content.

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DustyOldPile said:
It could just be the recording or the pressing. Try some other records.
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kermit z said:
No, I do not believe your hearing wow and flutter. Could be the recording, could be your set up needs tweaking.
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Pio1980 said:
It definitely wouldn't be w&f causing harshness, mistaking or tracing problems more likely if not the disc content.
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Thanks guys! :thmbsp:

I'm not hearing it on other LPs that I can tell, the cart is only a couple days old and not burned-in yet. And I don't normally listen to female vocals - save Fleetwood Mac on occasion.

The fact that the instruments, balance, and mix on this album sound so detailed, and I assume Ronstadt recorded in the best LA studios w/ top equipment, so I was wondering why I was hearing identical harsh vocals on two different copies of this particular LP.

Must be something in my setup, and I'm going to hunt for the culprit. Thanks again, and sorry for the OT!
 
DaverJ said:
Thanks guys! :thmbsp:

I'm not hearing it on other LPs that I can tell, the cart is only a couple days old and not burned-in yet. And I don't normally listen to female vocals - save Fleetwood Mac on occasion.

The fact that the instruments, balance, and mix on this album sound so detailed, and I assume Ronstadt recorded in the best LA studios w/ top equipment, so I was wondering why I was hearing identical harsh vocals on two different copies of this particular LP.

Must be something in my setup, and I'm going to hunt for the culprit. Thanks again, and sorry for the OT!
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You could upload a small clip, then it´s much easier to tell.
 
DaverJ said:
I assume Ronstadt recorded in the best LA studios w/ top equipment, so I was wondering why I was hearing identical harsh vocals on two different copies of this particular LP.!
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There were a lot of <ahem> substances <cough cough> in use in those days that tended to get in the way of QC...
 
Hi all.... just to butt into this conversation... :)
Back in the early 80's even mainstream Technics direct-drive with quartz lock were claiming 0.025% wow and flutter figures, with rumble at -78db.... Non of these modern Hanpin turntables seem to able to come close to that.
I'm currently listening to an old Technics belt drive SL-B202 that I've renovated and was quoted at 0.045% w&f, with -70db rumble....
Looking at the strobe and listening, it seems pretty spot-on!! Absolutely no wow or flutter, and no audible rumble :) And very nice sounding too even using a basic Shure 75-6 cartridge :)
So I guess the basic question is, how come these Hanpin tables can't even match the most basic belt-drive specs from 35 years ago with their new direct-drives? My B-202 is spot-on for speed after all these years ;)
These new Hanpin boast quartz-lock, so what is wrong if they can't manage the specs that a 35 year old table can achieve?
It is a shame, because though I've not heard one of these new decks, if they're the market leaders in 'new' technology decks - I rad read in one review that the new Pioneer uses a photo-optic element to ensure speed accuracy.... then why are it's specs as poor as the others?
Why do my basic Technics belt-drive (and possibly my old BSR P-128R) have better speed specifications?
I guess this all comes together as to why we have no affordable direct drives like we did in the 80's...... they'd be far too expensive to make nowadays properly..... Hanpin don't seem to be there yet... :(
I also have a Technics SL-D202, Q303, and an SL-1210mkII.... always been a fan of the way that Technics made their direct drives, but now having reconditioned this old belt drive... ;)
But if the new manufacturers can't give us a direct drive to equal the old specs, then they might as well not bother.... stick to cheaper belt-drives that give the same figures anyway!! :)
 
Hanpin's sole task as an OEM is to build a product to the specifications provided by the customer. Whether that customer is Denon, Audio Technica or Pioneer. No more, no less.


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What about the Hanpin made Gemini PDT 6000 which was their "TOTL" TT? I have one that I bought because it was relatively cheap and played 78s. According to the owner's manual over on vinylengine it has the same .01 W&F and -78dB rumble specs as the new Reloop. According to most places I've read, Gemini TTs were crap, but this one seems well made and is made HEAVY. It even came with rubber dampening material on the underside of the platter. I bypassed the internal preamp/ADC and replaced the felt mat with a 1/4" Technics mat. It actually sounds surprisingly good. VERY close to my Technics. Any thoughts?

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/gemini/pdt-6000.shtml
 
RamblinE said:
Hanpin's sole task as an OEM is to build a product to the specifications provided by the customer. Whether that customer is Denon, Audio Technica or Pioneer. No more, no less.


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So the 'customer' is at fault?
It just seems odd that most of those Hanpin decks quote the same specs... 0.1% w&f regardless of manufacturer, and seem to have the same arm-bearing mounting which some have reported are loose..... (but that's probably just a q&a issue), but it's hard to believe that both Pioneer and Audio Technica would go to them with a speed specification like that.... and certainly not for their more expensive top-of-the-line type decks... :)
I guess it all comes down to modern economics though.... something half-decent for a really low price!! ;)
 
yarvelling said:
So the 'customer' is at fault?

It just seems odd that most of those Hanpin decks quote the same specs... 0.1% w&f regardless of manufacturer, and seem to have the same arm-bearing mounting which some have reported are loose..... (but that's probably just a q&a issue), but it's hard to believe that both Pioneer and Audio Technica would go to them with a speed specification like that.... and certainly not for their more expensive top-of-the-line type decks... :)

I guess it all comes down to modern economics though.... something half-decent for a really low price!! ;)
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They're also the only shop in town at this point. The reality is that the R&D cost to develop a direct drive table today will never be recouped because vinyl playback is a niche market. So that's why Audio Technica and Pioneer and the like get their decks from them.

If you want a direct drive that lives up to the old government subsidized manufacturing standard there's always the VPI Classic Direct.


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beat_truck said:
What about the Hanpin made Gemini PDT 6000 [...] Any thoughts?
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Honestly, I don't believe the Gemini's specs are accurate. But I would have to look at the schematic to be sure. Also, the stated tonearm bearing friction is the same as the Yamaha GT-2000X! If I'm wrong about the Gemini I will happily stand corrected...

http://audio.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/gemini_sound_products/pdt6000_1.html

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-yamaha-gt-2000x-2013-07-01-vintage-equipment-portugal

No affiliation with either link.
 
The way a table is driven is completely irrelevant. I have 3x direct drives, 1x idler and 1x belt drive. Each have their advantages and disadvantages but in the end my Dual 1228 is my fav purely based on it's looks. Each table can sound great, though each requires a different cartridge and in some cases phono stage to sound at their best.
 
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