Why the disdain towards direct-drive TTs from some audiophiles?

[Grenadeslio]

I believe you! Sometimes, for some differences, rapid A/B is EXCELLENT, particularly when comparing differences in tonality - they really jump out, in that context. For other differences, such as micro-dynamics and revealed detail, you won't be able to tell sh*t from rapid A/B. Many people have bought into the idea that switching time must be nearly instantaneous, because our 'audio memory' is supposedly just awful. Experiments 'prove' that point, but those experiments are only testing short-term memory, or sensory memory (even shorter term), not long term memory. Many, if not most audiophiles that have been around for awhile have realized that the best way to listen for subtle differences is to get good and used to a system, without any changes, for several weeks, and then make one change only, and listen. This relies on long-term memory of things you have heard before. If you hear new things on familiar recordings, chances are high that you've made an upgrade.

Nailed it. It's all in the nuances, imaging, soundstage, etc. Once you hear (feel, see?) that holographic 3D soundstage/image and all its subtleties anything that interferes isn't a good thing. When you hear subtleties you've never heard before (sounds familiar eh?) it's possible we've made an improvement. More is not always necessarily better as you know from your post above.

Like setting up speakers, the room, etc takes time, even weeks of listening sessions (upgrading?) or not takes real listening, this doesnt happen by rapid A/B'ing, even with speakers.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I have a remote control, with buttons, it only takes a split second to switch between power amp/speaker side of the system. All the while everything stays the same from the front end to the preamp.


I have identical tables setup in my system, it's only a mater of cuing one up and the other down in a second to hear a difference in cartridges. I also can hear the differences in mastering of same title of different pressings.

Sorry to pop your bubble, amps, speakers, tables, cartridges, preamps all sound different.

If they didn't sound different we might as well all buy Sound Design gear with a pair of Sansui SP speakers!

 

[petemcfc]

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Why the disdain towards direct-drive TTs from some audiophiles?

As much as Im enjoying this rat arsed squabble this is getting very silly.

 

[gkimeng]

I had a DD table once, and I was perfectly happy with the way it worked. Until it didn't. And by the time it didn't, service and parts had become unobtainable. OTOH, it's fairly easy to find parts like belts and even motors - some of them originally made for completely different tables - that can be swapped into my nearly 60-year old belt drive table. I think there are even people out there making replacement rollers for some idler drive tables of the same vintage.

If I had a pile of money to spend on a new turntable every few years, it wouldn't matter. But I don't.

 

[ODS123]

I had a DD table once, and I was perfectly happy with the way it worked. Until it didn't. And by the time it didn't, service and parts had become unobtainable. OTOH, it's fairly easy to find parts like belts and even motors - some of them originally made for completely different tables - that can be swapped into my nearly 60-year old belt drive table. I think there are even people out there making replacement rollers for some idler drive tables of the same vintage.

If I had a pile of money to spend on a new turntable every few years, it wouldn't matter. But I don't.

A totally reasonable, sensible reason for preferring belt-drive TT's.

 

[Bicyclist]

A totally reasonable, sensible reason for preferring belt-drive TT's.

I agree, part of my enjoyment of the hobby is using really old stuff that sounds good. Old cartridges are nice too.

 

[4-2-7]

If they didn't sound different we might as well all buy Sound Design gear with a pair of Sansui SP speakers!

I find it's generally the ones with sound design quality that want to squawk that all gear sounds the same, that or they just can't hear. Well this thread is getting telling, now we are finding out why a SL1200 is the best thing since sliced bread and end game table.

 

[BilboBaggins]

My first decent receiver was a Marantz 1530 I got in the early 80s. I loved it! It was beautiful, but I always thought I could do better. My next receiver was a NAD 7240PE. Suddenly, Records sounded good! I relistened to my whole collection, and started buying them again, even though I had also bought into the CD craze. Then I started having kids and Audio took a back seat. I got back into it in 2010, and caught the tail end of the thrift store finds. But I was able to replace my long gone Marantz 1530, and once again, I heard dull Records. A far cry from my other systems that I had procured during this time.

I feel the same way about most receivers I’ve heard, excepting a few brands like NAD and Harman Kardon, and Sansui. I've never really found that most pioneers did it for me, except the Spec 2 I had connected to an SA-9100 for preamp.

If you don’t have more than one system, and don’t compare pieces of them with other gear, you will never know if there are differences or not between different pieces of gear. Even with all my experience, I almost fell for it once when I had a pair of Tangent RS8 on my main living room system, comprised of a McIntosh MC2205 and a C24. I was very disappointed with the sound, and thought the bass was dull, the mid muffled, and the highs very thin. I put back my newly restored C26 freshly back from the shop, and my wife and I were literally stunned at the transformation! Before that, I was determined to sell the speakers, and after that, I sold the preamp. That might have been a mistake, but it threw me off quite a bit. The Tangents stayed in that system for a few more weeks before I brought back my Kef Concerto, which stayed there the longest until I got my Cornwalls.

The Tangents are sounding great, but it took me a while to find components that had synergy with them. They are at a friends house now, being driven by a Yamaha P2100 matched with a Pioneer SA-1000 for the preamp.

Point being, is that room placement, components, everything, in fact, can have a big impact on sound. It all depends on whether your gear is up to the task, and your ears can differentiate the changes.

 

[zoombrewer77]

My first decent receiver was a Marantz 1530 I got in the early 80s. I loved it! It was beautiful, but I always thought I could do better. My next receiver was a NAD 7240PE. Suddenly, Records sounded good! I relistened to my whole collection, and started buying them again, even though I had also bought into the CD craze. Then I started having kids and Audio took a back seat. I got back into it in 2010, and caught the tail end of the thrift store finds. But I was able to replace my long gone Marantz 1530, and once again, I heard dull Records. A far cry from my other systems that I had procured during this time.

I feel the same way about most receivers I’ve heard, excepting a few brands like NAD and Harman Kardon, and Sansui. I've never really found that most pioneers did it for me, except the Spec 2 I had connected to an SA-9100 for preamp.

If you don’t have more than one system, and don’t compare pieces of them with other gear, you will never know if there are differences or not between different pieces of gear. Even with all my experience, I almost fell for it once when I had a pair of Tangent RS8 on my main living room system, comprised of a McIntosh MC2205 and a C24. I was very disappointed with the sound, and though the bass was dull, the mid muffled, and the highs very thin. I put back my newly restored C26 freshly back from the shop, and my wife and I were literally stunned at the transformation! Before that, I was determined to sell the speakers, and after that, I sold the preamp. That might have been a mistake, but it threw me off quite a bit. The Tangents stayed in that system for a few more weeks before I brought back my Kef Concerto, which stayed there the longest until I got my Cornwalls.

The Tangents are sounding great, but it took me a while to find components that had synergy with them. They are at a friends house now, being driven by a Yamaha P2100 matched with a Pioneer SA-1000 for the preamp.

Point being, is that room placement, components, everything, in fact, can have a big impact on sound. It all depends on whether your gear is up to the task, and your ears can differentiate the changes.

Get outta here with your well reasoned, even tempered, rational discussion. You’re interrupting the juvenile flame wars.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Get outta here with your well reasoned, even tempered, rational discussion. You’re interrupting the juvenile flame wars.

 

[lini]

Regretfully, Ethan Winer is completely on-target. (...)

For the most part, I'd agree. What I'm missing, though, is the objectivist/"no-nonsense" camp to acknowedge, what I'd call the synaesthetic aspect in enjoying hifi (or one could just as well also call it a placebo effect). I.e., my usual point against blind tests is, that I am not blind. So just like for example a nice presentation on the plate, a nice atmosphere and pleasant company et cetera can make exactly the same food "taste better", certain characteristics of the equipment (like for example a nice visual appearance, visibly and tangibly good build quality, pleasant handling et cetera) would certainly seem likely to enhance the listening experience to a certain degree. Gladly enough I tend to be a rather technically oriented and otherwise quite sceptical person, and I'm not exactly a fan of a lot of bling and also don't expect my hifi equipment to be built like a tank - but I can accept, that other people have different preferences, and hence deem a certain tolerance necessary and too much objectivist preaching inappropriate and unpleasant, especially as it's not exactly my business, what other people spend their money on.

However, mind you, that my above point against blind testing isn't supposed to mean, that I'd deem blind testing completely worthless. Becaue in fact I'd rather deem blind testing still very valuable, whenever it would seem important to exclude those synaesthetic/placebo effects, which I'd deem foremost the case in development, but also in professional reviews.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[JP]

Ack.

 

[zoombrewer77]

Ack.

Also, ugh.

 

[ODS123]

My first decent receiver was a Marantz 1530 I got in the early 80s. I loved it! It was beautiful, but I always thought I could do better. My next receiver was a NAD 7240PE. Suddenly, Records sounded good! I relistened to my whole collection, and started buying them again, even though I had also bought into the CD craze. Then I started having kids and Audio took a back seat. I got back into it in 2010, and caught the tail end of the thrift store finds. But I was able to replace my long gone Marantz 1530, and once again, I heard dull Records. A far cry from my other systems that I had procured during this time.

I feel the same way about most receivers I’ve heard, excepting a few brands like NAD and Harman Kardon, and Sansui. I've never really found that most pioneers did it for me, except the Spec 2 I had connected to an SA-9100 for preamp.

If you don’t have more than one system, and don’t compare pieces of them with other gear, you will never know if there are differences or not between different pieces of gear. Even with all my experience, I almost fell for it once when I had a pair of Tangent RS8 on my main living room system, comprised of a McIntosh MC2205 and a C24. I was very disappointed with the sound, and thought the bass was dull, the mid muffled, and the highs very thin. I put back my newly restored C26 freshly back from the shop, and my wife and I were literally stunned at the transformation! Before that, I was determined to sell the speakers, and after that, I sold the preamp. That might have been a mistake, but it threw me off quite a bit. The Tangents stayed in that system for a few more weeks before I brought back my Kef Concerto, which stayed there the longest until I got my Cornwalls.

The Tangents are sounding great, but it took me a while to find components that had synergy with them. They are at a friends house now, being driven by a Yamaha P2100 matched with a Pioneer SA-1000 for the preamp
Point being, is that room placement, components, everything, in fact, can have a big impact on sound. It all depends on whether your gear is up to the task, and your ears can differentiate the changes.

yes, well.... i went from an NAD 7250 PE to a B&k 202+/ pro-10mc sonata combo to a Bryson 3bsst/BP25 to Peachtree Nova to my current Mac MA6600 and was never able to hear one iota of difference between any one of them. Nor my kids or wife. I even swapped in an Onkyo AVR for my Macintosh when it needed servicing and still, not one iota of difference. And, as stated earlier in the thread I have excellent measured hearing, and a keen sense of musical nuance.

 

[zoombrewer77]

yes, well.... i went from an NAD 7250 PE to a B&k 202+/ pro-10mc sonata combo to a Bryson 3bsst/BP25 to Peachtree Nova to my current Mac MA6600 and was never able to hear one iota of difference between any one of them. Nor my kids or wife. I even swapped in an Onkyo AVR for my Macintosh when it needed servicing and still, not one iota of difference.

Then why do you bother?

 

[zoombrewer77]

Better question...why are you here? You clearly don’t need advice, and definitely don’t offer it.

 

[BilboBaggins]

yes, well.... i went from an NAD 7250 PE to a B&k 202+/ pro-10mc sonata combo to a Bryson 3bsst/BP25 to Peachtree Nova to my current Mac MA6600 and was never able to hear one iota of difference between any one of them. Nor my kids or wife. I even swapped in an Onkyo AVR for my Macintosh when it needed servicing and still, not one iota of difference. And, as stated earlier in the thread I have excellent measured hearing, and a keen sense of musical nuance.

I think that means that you have already made up your mind. So the reason for this thread is...

I don't recall you mentioning the speakers you are using with it. That could be important.

 

[cafe latte]

While I agree that components should sound more similar as fidelity improves, I want to thank you for appending 'IMO' to this statement. When I went from my 'wonderful' SS phono preamp stage (Luxman L-505u) to my Fosgate Signature tube phono preamp, the imaging became very noticeably more precise, and more vivid. I don't think that can be explained by the typical "Oh, you must prefer distortion" slur.

I enjoy me CJ valve pre and power, but it is accepted that valves are not as accurate as transistor or mosfet. That said there is an appeal of valve gear, distortion aside there is something about it that makes ne plug in my valve gear often for weeks at a time to get my fix of whatever it is. I accept it is colored though but I like it all the same.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

If they didn't sound different we might as well all buy Sound Design gear with a pair of Sansui SP speakers!

Not really, when we get to a level of really good stuff most are remarkably similar, amps especially valve aside. Key wording here is well made, compare two well made amps if they sound vastly different one or both are not well made as they are not doing their job properly. Pre amps this applies even more as today it is possible to make pre amps with vanishingly low distortion super quiet too. If well made pre amps sound different to each other there really is a problem with one of them. DNM for example have a buffered passive section for line level which is basically not doing anything to the signal at all. Speakers are flawed technology so there will be differences, electrostatics are very fast but issues is power and bass, cone speakers do the latter better but are not as fast as electrostatics. This aside comparing like for like ie a full range floor standers with decent drive units and again well made ie both having braced cabinets and both being well designed re crossovers etc differences are not going to be night and day if they are someone has stuffed the design up.
Chris

 

[4-2-7]

Then why do you bother?

Better question...why are you here? You clearly don’t need advice, and definitely don’t offer it.

To come and argue with other members. I would say in anyones audio world that's the most contentious remarks to make online. Anyone can hear the difference between equipment, so when you throw that out in a thread you'll have plenty of people to argue with. No one can fathom a remark like that.