Why the disdain towards direct-drive TTs from some audiophiles?

Luicas said:
Chiming in with my $0.02 cents.

I’m one of those, gifted or punished, with almost perfect pitch hearing and also definitely not a rich person in a sense of $10,000 dlls TT’s and carts.

Started this hobby in 2017 with an entry level belt driven TT, Teac TN300, and 30 days later put it up for sale. Couldn’t stand the pitch wavering on piano recordings. Bought a nicer belt driven MMF 5.1, and surely performed much better but piano notes still suffered a bit, plus dreaded Pro Ject motor hum, and average tracking..... that MMF reached my budget of $1,000. (Incl. cart) Fixed the motor hum. Speed wavering-wise, I could have lived with the MMF and kept it for a while. But it always tickled me that I wanted better piano performance... I listen to lots of piano recordings.

Looking for options, I bought a nice looking but “for repairs” Technics SL-Q2 for $80 bucks. Fixed it with another $50 bucks. Boom!, problem solved. No more wavering long piano notes and at least the same tracking ability/compromise as the MMF.

Bought a new Pioneer PLX-1000 for $700 , carefully adjusted tonearm bearings. Boom!, absolutely no speed wavering and Much better tracking than the lowly old technics. And nicer looks if you like that kind of TT.

Sold the MMF 5.1. Sold the technics SL-Q2. Bought a second PLX-1000 for my living room.

For me, DD came to save my day, within my budget.

Cheers,
Luis
Click to expand...

First, welcome to AK. You are so right. Though I am not a musician, I can hear but can hear it if a turntable is off. Those old Technics work well. Was a dealer for them in the 70s. They were a go to. That Pioneer you got has seen some good reviews. Sold a bunch of old Pioneers as new back in the 70s as well. Fixed up several lower end Dual 1225s. Not in the league of my 1219s (2). One is fine. The other you can hear wow and flutter on it. It’s off. Wish I could check out your Pioneer locally. Though I have 7 turntables. Anyway glad you solved your issues. Nothing worse than hearing something that’s off. Play a lot of classical here.

Eric
 
The SP 10 Mk II and III are great tables but the much more expensive SME's 30 series have half the measurable wow and flutter and better rumble figures. They are acoustically isolated and can be adjusted to perfect speed. Now I know we are talking many times the price. But in addition you get a much better arm with the SME, the MK V. You can step down to the 20/3 SME and get the same great arm and equal the SL-1000R TT performance today even for less than 1/2 the money of the 30 series. If I had big disposable bucks, there are other choices even beyond the SME from Scandinavia, Italy and Germany. But I'd be happy with the SME's. Though it would be fun to have a middle of the road Bergmann Magne with linear tracking, vacuum hold down and air suspended table to play with for about the same price as the SL 1000 R. What separates the men from the boys is the ability to produce the sustained sounds of a piano with out hearing additional note beats introduced by a TT and this The SL 10's I have heard do very well. And for the money a SL 10 MK III would be a perfect choice. Not the perfection of the SME, but a choice I could be very happy with.
 
stereofisher said:
First, welcome to AK. You are so right. Though I am not a musician, I can hear but can hear it if a turntable is off. Those old Technics work well. Was a dealer for them in the 70s. They were a go to. That Pioneer you got has seen some good reviews. Sold a bunch of old Pioneers as new back in the 70s as well. Fixed up several lower end Dual 1225s. Not in the league of my 1219s (2). One is fine. The other you can hear wow and flutter on it. It’s off. Wish I could check out your Pioneer locally. Though I have 7 turntables. Anyway glad you solved your issues. Nothing worse than hearing something that’s off. Play a lot of classical here.

Eric
Click to expand...

Perhaps once non-essential businesses re-open, you could visit the closest Guitar Center. They carry the Pioneer PLX-1000. Not the best environment for an audition, but at least you can get a feel for the quality of the Pioneer. If you don't want to head into the big city, looks like there are Guitar Centers in Albany and Danbury, CT.
 
I have perfect pitch, and I can definitely tell you that I’ll always insist on a turntable with pitch control. Frankly, it’s my favorite feature of the format. You don’t get it very often on tape machines, and you can’t adjust playback speed and pitch on the fly with digital. Sometimes a song doesn’t sound right at it’s normal speed, or the instruments are out of tune. Y’ever hear a 45 of “Jolene” by Dolly Parton at 33? Or “Your Move” by Donna Summer a few cents down? Entire genres have been built on that, and it’s wonderful.

Bringing it back to the drive system debate, direct drives tend to have the widest range, while belts and idlers tend to be kinda narrow. All three, though, can be rock-solid though.
 
twiiii said:
The SP 10 Mk II and III are great tables but the much more expensive SME's 30 series have half the measurable wow and flutter and better rumble figures. They are acoustically isolated and can be adjusted to perfect speed. Now I know we are talking many times the price. But in addition you get a much better arm with the SME, the MK V. You can step down to the 20/3 SME and get the same great arm and equal the SL-1000R TT performance today even for less than 1/2 the money of the 30 series. If I had big disposable bucks, there are other choices even beyond the SME from Scandinavia, Italy and Germany. But I'd be happy with the SME's. Though it would be fun to have a middle of the road Bergmann Magne with linear tracking, vacuum hold down and air suspended table to play with for about the same price as the SL 1000 R. What separates the men from the boys is the ability to produce the sustained sounds of a piano with out hearing additional note beats introduced by a TT and this The SL 10's I have heard do very well. And for the money a SL 10 MK III would be a perfect choice. Not the perfection of the SME, but a choice I could be very happy with.
Click to expand...

I've spent some time with the Bergmann with the linear arm and agree that it's a very nice table. They didn't have the SL1000R set up at the time but they did have an SL1200G, both with the same carts, and we swapped them a few times. They both sounded excellent but subtly different. This was through D'ag and AR gear though for the life of me, I can't remember what speakers.
 
twiiii said:
The SP 10 Mk II and III are great tables but the much more expensive SME's 30 series have half the measurable wow and flutter and better rumble figures. They are acoustically isolated and can be adjusted to perfect speed. Now I know we are talking many times the price. But in addition you get a much better arm with the SME, the MK V. You can step down to the 20/3 SME and get the same great arm and equal the SL-1000R TT performance today even for less than 1/2 the money of the 30 series. If I had big disposable bucks, there are other choices even beyond the SME from Scandinavia, Italy and Germany. But I'd be happy with the SME's. Though it would be fun to have a middle of the road Bergmann Magne with linear tracking, vacuum hold down and air suspended table to play with for about the same price as the SL 1000 R. What separates the men from the boys is the ability to produce the sustained sounds of a piano with out hearing additional note beats introduced by a TT and this The SL 10's I have heard do very well. And for the money a SL 10 MK III would be a perfect choice. Not the perfection of the SME, but a choice I could be very happy with.
Click to expand...
JP has measured the SP10mk3 to be 0.015% wow and flutter and the mk2 to be 0.02%, I seriously doubt the SME 30's measure half that.
Chris
Edit.. Just checked, the SME30/12 has wow and flutter of 0.03% so higher than a Technics SP10mk2 and 3, also rumble is 74db so again higher than both SP10mk2 and 3.

SP-10 mk3

Motor: brushless DC motor, electronic rectification, quartz-controlled phase-locked servo circuit

Plater: 320mm, 10kg copper/aluminium

Speeds: 33, 45 and 78rpm

Pitch control: 20%

Starting torque: 16kg-cm

Build up time: 0.25s to 33rpm

Braking time: 0.3s from 33rpm

Speed fluctuation by load changes: 0% within 10kg-cm

Wow and flutter: 0.015% WRMS (JIS C5521)

Rumble: -92dB (IEC 98A weighted)

Dimensions: 369 x 113 x 369mm

Weight: 18kg
Chris
 
Last edited:
cafe latte, I would never expect a belt drive tt to better a top of the line direct drive in critical specs. And the nice thing about direct drive tables is that they will do it for century's with minimal maintenance.
I do however own a couple of belt drive tt, they do have their charms although they are sitting idle at the moment as I'm enjoying my JVC QL-A7 direct drive quartz locked turntable.

BillWojo
 
My thoughts are- I consider the audible difference as one would compare a live performance . But in one stadium or concert hall. Different but one not better than the other.
Well unless it's winter.
Cheers
 
onwardjames said:
@Luicas - Same here, bud. Perfect pitch, and I always focus on that small vacillation. Can't help it. Drives me bonkers.

DD for my fussy ears seems to work.
Click to expand...

I’m one of those odd people that bore out spindle holes on even the slightest off centered records and take my time to perfectly center my records on the platter.

Cheers
 
Have any longgggg songs on both CD and LP?? ..When I sync Desolation Row (B. Dylan) on both my SL1210GR and my music server and sync them... The Technics is dead-on through the entire song. ..I've not had ANY belt-drive tables that didn't lose or gain several seconds by the end of the song. ..I found that to be incredibly aggravating.

Even more aggravating was when I'd play an LP with long, sustained piano notes and I'd hear the notes bend. As just one example (i think I mentioned this earlier in this thread) George Winston's December. ..This album is a torture test for turntables. ..I couldn't listen to this on any of my past three BD tables. ..On my SL1210gr, it's a thing of beauty. Rock steady pitch from beginning to end. Spinning the record at the right speed without fluctuation is job #1 of any turntable. ..Belt-drives will always struggle with this IMHO.
 
ODS123 said:
Have any longgggg songs on both CD and LP?? ..When I sync Desolation Row (B. Dylan) on both my SL1210GR and my music server and sync them... The Technics is dead-on through the entire song. ..I've not had ANY belt-drive tables that didn't lose or gain several seconds by the end of the song. ..I found that to be incredibly aggravating.

Even more aggravating was when I'd play an LP with long, sustained piano notes and I'd hear the notes bend. As just one example (i think I mentioned this earlier in this thread) George Winston's December. ..This album is a torture test for turntables. ..I couldn't listen to this on any of my past three BD tables. ..On my SL1210gr, it's a thing of beauty. Rock steady pitch from beginning to end. Spinning the record at the right speed without fluctuation is job #1 of any turntable. ..Belt-drives will always struggle with this IMHO.
Click to expand...

I never tried this test. Interesting. :idea: :)
 
cafe latte said:
Me too, Spent decades not realising I needed a DD.
Chris
Click to expand...

I'm really trying to talk myself out of an SL1200. I have all the popular drive types except for quartz locked DD.

I love my Kenwood DD but it needs a new trim pot and maybe a recap as the pot is beyond touchy and the speed drifts a bit over time. My Dual is all lubed and tuned but you still need to tweak the speed a bit if it hasn't run in a while. My Thorens is fiddly and it's hard to get it dead accurate with springs and stretchy rubber belts. I think I might be too anal retentive for tables that don't hold perfect speed :(.

Before anyone tells me to just fix the Kenwood, yes, I'll be getting to it. I just picked up a new Soldering station yesterday.
 
Last edited:
percivilla said:
I'm really trying to talk myself out of an SL1200. I have all the popular drive types except for quartz locked DD.

I love my Kenwood DD but it needs a new trim pot and maybe a recap as the pot is beyond touchy and the speed drifts a bit over time. My Dual is all lubed and tuned but you still need to tweak the speed a bit if it hasn't run in a while. My Thorens is fiddly and it's hard to get it dead accurate with springs and stretchy rubber belts. I think I might be too anal retentive for tables that don't hold perfect speed :(.

Before anyone tells me to just fix the Kenwood, yes, I'll be getting to it. I just picked up a new Soldering station yesterday.
Click to expand...
Here

Kenwood KD770D

You'll never look back.
 
Grenadeslio said:
Here

Kenwood KD770D

You'll never look back.
Click to expand...

It's finding one that's the trick. Never seen one locally and I'm always nervous having a turntable shipped, let alone not being able to see it in person. 1200's pop up regularly.

Finding parts for those Kenny's down the road could also be an issue.

Agree though, they seem sweet.
 
Guess I'm just too cheap of a bottom feeder to enter the realm of the fine DD:s mentioned here.

The DD:s that are within my budget (tops out at around 100 euros) all seems to be lightweight plastic crap.
In this budget I can find belt drives and idlers that are much nicer. Like the Lenco L75 im listening too right now. 60 bucks and some cheap spare parts and elbow grease later it is a really nice deck.

No rumble, dead on speed (for my ears at least) and good looks.

But how knows, if I got to listen to a good DD my L75 maybe would be a boat anchor :)...
 
percivilla said:
It's finding one that's the trick. Never seen one locally and I'm always nervous having a turntable shipped, let alone not being able to see it in person. 1200's pop up regularly.

Finding parts for those Kenny's down the road could also be an issue.

Agree though, they seem sweet.
Click to expand...
My last 6 tables were all purchased through eBay including the Kenny and shipped without issue, if there had been any issues eBay's outstanding buyer protection policy would have covered me completely so absolutely no worries. But you must do your due diligence in communication with the seller before.

If you want to have the best selection of tables.........., if not then there's that.
 
T68 said:
But how knows, if I got to listen to a good DD my L75 maybe would be a boat anchor :)...
Click to expand...

I decommissioned and sold my Lenco after listening to a good DD, and haven’t looked back ever since :p

To be honest, I’m not convinced that classic Lencos are suitable for very high quality reproduction of stereo records because of their drive system. The idler wheel is oriented vertically and the rumble it creates (even if it’s minuscule) is out of phase meaning that it’s spread between the two channels. The way it modulates the signal also means that it distorts spatial clues.

Proper rim-drive turntables produce in-phase rumble that is localized centrally and is much less noticeable. Also this means there’s no smearing of spatial clues within the signal.

On the upside, Lencos make outstanding mono turntables... ;)
 
I was reading up on this thread since my last post, and realized I only have direct drive turntables(3) currently in rotation. My belt and idlers are sidelined at the moment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom