Why the hell do people bother with "full-range" speakers??

What the charts in post #180 don't show is "At least one member of each instrument family (strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) produces energy to 40 kHz or above, and the spectra of some instruments reach this work's measurement limit of 102.4 kHz. Harmonics of muted trumpet extend to 80 kHz; violin and oboe, to above 40 kHz; and a cymbal crash was still strong at 100 kHz." From a report written by James Boyk, California Institute of Technology.

Now few stereo systems can reproduce such frequencies, which helps explain why live instruments are so hard to copy. We may not hear one note above 20,000, but we do hear the effect a 40,000 hz harmonic has on the rest of the music.
 
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I thought we were talkin' about low frequency limit of music... well, at any rate, I was. I was responding the the previous post.
Poultrygeist said:
"solid bass into the 20's" - the great majority of recorded music does not reach below 40hz.
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No doubt that "overtones" are important to what we hear from different instruments -- e.g., much percussion.
 
Poultrygeist said:
"solid bass into the 20's" - the great majority of recorded music does not reach below 40hz.
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Very true. I believe this is why compressors were invented: to put back that which was omitted. (Sometimes it is to invent that which never existed, but which still makes the music sound better.)
 
Poultrygeist said:
"solid bass into the 20's" - the great majority of recorded music does not reach below 40hz.
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Listen to much modern EDM?

There's whole genres of music out there, that regularly plumb the 25 Hz range.

Also, the fact that when you have a rolloff, you have phase and timing effects that occur up to three octaves away from the rolloff point, means that any speaker that's not flat in response from well below, to well above, the range of hearing, has significant timing errors in the ends of the sonic spectrum, compared to the middle. That alone is enough to justify wide bandwidth. Read the works of designers such as Stuart Hegeman... they describe this effect in great detail..,.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
"40 to 80Hz contains the fundamental frequencies of the low bass notes and the kick drum. This is the first octave we are concerned with unless we are reproducing earthquakes and the like" - Bob Daniels Recording Institute of Detroit
 
A fair write up and some of the reasons why.........


Quote:
Single driver speakers are not for everyone. I want to make this clear at this point, because the last thing I want to do is have a pair of speakers returned as "unsuitable".
Single driver speakers are most suitable for the more intimate genre and at moderate volume levels. This includes solo voice, small group jazz and 18th century classical and chamber music. For these genre, single driver speakers are superb. You will hear nothing better. They also do classic rock pretty well as long as the volume is kept to reasonable levels. By reasonable, I mean ~80dB at the listening position. (I set my LT-2000/DX3's 8 feet apart and my chair 8 feet back.) Now, if you are into heavy metal or want Mahler symphonies at concert volume, I suggest that you look elsewhere. You will be disappointed and I have to eat shipping costs and try to unload a custom pair of speakers at as little loss as possible.

Why Single Driver Speakers?

Single driver speakers have a unique sound. That sound comes from a lack of a conventional crossover. In a two-way speaker, the acoustic phase of each driver rotates in opposite directions around the crossover point. While the combined phase may be correct at the crossover point, away from that point, the phase will be constantly changing. Why is this important? The human ear/brain is designed to locate sounds primarily by phase. We are very sensitive to phase in the 300-3000Hz range. Outside on this range, sound location becomes increasingly difficult, but within this range, if the phasing is messed up, the sound stage lacks precision and depth. A normal two-way speaker has the crossover point in the middle of 1500-2000Hz range, which is smack in the middle of the frequency band where humans are most sensitive to phase changes. By not having a crossover and the attendant phase problems, a single driver speaker sounds much more natural.

A good single driver speaker is more articulate and detailed in the bass and midrange that a multi-way speaker. Because the driver in a singe driver speaker must work up to 10kHz and beyond, the cone is much lighter than the cone of a comparably sized driver in a multi-way speaker that is crossed out by 2kHz. Less cone mass means faster response to the electrical signal and better transient response. The lighter cones also promote higher efficiency. While my speakers don't qualify as "high-efficiency", all except the FTA-2000 are rated at 92dB/w/m or better, making them good matches to all but the smallest tube amplifiers. (Don't worry, they work great with high-powered solid-state amplifiers too.)

http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/


The key to SDFR systems is coherence. If that means little or nothing to you, then go elsewhere for your music. Some listeners are sensitive to timbre and timing while others are not. Some are confounded by the sound of conventional ported systems while others are not. IMO you have to decide what it is you are trying to eliminate from your music before you are a good candidate for a SDFR. You might find a two way system with a very simple HP filter alone to be closer to satisfactory when compared to a SDFR with the two way offering slightly greater (measured) high frequency extension and almost certainly a wider sweet spot for listening. However, the phasing issues mentioned on Bob's web page will always exist with any crossover and it requires a designer who is thinking outside of the normal conventions of consumer loudspeaker design to make a simple two way system work well.

Beginning explorations of SDFR's need not be expensive though the best of the bunch can represent a substantial investment given the conflicting requirements placed upon a SDFR.

Don't limit yourself to the Fostex line, there are more than a few SDFR's to choose from (http://www.audience-av.com/parts/A3.php). Do some research before investing in any driver. This is a particularly nice SDFR that I have heard in several systems but it sacrifices sensitivity for smoothness (http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=FR125SR). The size of the driver will be one consideration with obvious trade offs as you go between smaller and larger diameters.

Sensitivity is another consideration and currently many SDFR's are being built to suit the low powered SET and T-amp crowd (which also suits the character of a SDFR quite well - better IMO than a solid state, high powered amplifier would in most cases). However, if high sensitivity is not a requirement for your system, then you can trade off some other qualities by running a slightly lower spec'd unit. No matter what sensitivity spec you choose the efficiency of the system is generally higher than that of a two way since no energy is lost in the crossover components. System impedance remains quite constant in a SDFR so you are unlikely to stress the amplifier and that high current transistor amplifier will be out of place with a SDFR.

Most of the lower cost SDFR's (Fostex in particular) will show a rising midrange response which you must deal with in some manner. Some listeners choose to insert a baffle step correction network (http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=baffle step ...) while others simply deal with the position of the speaker within the listening environment or by manipulating the baffle dimensions. This approach would lead you to the possibility of an open baffle SDFR (http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=open baffle ...).
 
Open E on a Bass is 41.204Hz. Of standard orchestral instruments only pianos and pipe organs go lower. The open B string on 5 and 6 string electric bass' is 30.87Hz.
 
I love full rangers and have owned a few (various Fostex, Audio Nirvana, Mark Audio). None of them were an endgame for me. I continue to experiment but they still present themselves as a high quality wide band midrange to me. For some people/music that is enough.
 
I agree - they're fun, though... and I have an irrational fondness for extended range drivers having (literally) grown up with a pair of EV LS-12 twincones as the hifi speakers in our house.
 
wsissons said:
A good single driver speaker is more articulate and detailed in the bass and midrange that a multi-way speaker. Because the driver in a singe driver speaker must work up to 10kHz and beyond, the cone is much lighter than the cone of a comparably sized driver in a multi-way speaker that is crossed out by 2kHz. Less cone mass means faster response to the electrical signal and better transient response. The lighter cones also promote higher efficiency. While my speakers don't qualify as "high-efficiency", all except the FTA-2000 are rated at 92dB/w/m or better, making them good matches to all but the smallest tube amplifiers. (Don't worry, they work great with high-powered solid-state amplifiers too.)

http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/
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This is not categorically true.

The same light weight that makes a large "full-range" cone able to reproduce high frequencies, also makes that same cone subject to "doubling" in the bass (where the cone produces large second-harmonic distortion products, which make the speaker SOUND like it's got more bass than it actually does). This is not "accurate" in any way, in a fundamental sense...

Also, these light-weight cones are also subject to more extensive high-frequency break-up behavior than smaller cones or diaphragms producing the same treble range. This makes for a ragged response, with time-domain problems related to "ringing" within the cones themselves.

While some folks may like the sound that these cones produce, it's not "more articulate", in a real sense. What is possibly gained by the lack of a crossover, is usually given right back by the distortion and ringing/'time smearing" that most oftentimes will inherently occur, in using a cone outside it's "natural" frequency range.

Not to mention, dispersion. That's another can of worms. A large full-range cone will beam quite heavily in the upper frequencies (and by "large"- even a 5" cone is badly beaming at 10KHz). This usually results in the "head in a vise" syndrome- where if the listener moves even small amounts out of the "sweet spot", the sound goes away, in a subjective and objective response sense.

It's all a trade-off- and IMHO, the amount you give up with trying to force a single driver to cover everything (sort of the "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome, in essence), is more substantial than that which is given up, just using separate drivers each made to operate in its optimal range (especially if those drivers are oriented in a concentric pattern, so that their acoustic centers line up, pretty much)...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Poultrygeist said:
"40 to 80Hz contains the fundamental frequencies of the low bass notes and the kick drum. This is the first octave we are concerned with unless we are reproducing earthquakes and the like" - Bob Daniels Recording Institute of Detroit
Click to expand...

When was this written? The 1970s?

There's certainly plenty of music that makes it down to 30Hz and below now. Heck, just the proliferation of 5- and 6-string basses in pop and rock music alone, even if you ignore electronica...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Gordon,

The very lowest note a 5 string bass can produce is B at 31Hz.

In my years as a musician I've never seen that note on sheet music. D at 37Hz is a little more common but still quite rare.

E at 41Hz is the lowest note on a bass violin. Those who are attracted to FR SD speakers might think the bus stops there and for all practical purposes it really does.

Next time you're near a piano strike the lowest note and notice how horrible A at 27.5 Hz sounds. It's a sound but it's not music.
 
i am amused at this baloney. i am around live music daily and grew up in a house of musicians. i go to all types of concets, no more rock tho, nor country i admit. i listen to audio nirvana classic 8 in. full range drivers in a 1'3 l. ported minitower enclosure with a 7 watt set amp. rated @95 db... the sound surpasses some of the biggest multi driver expensive speakers i have ever heard. plenty of clean low end the cymbals sizzle and harmonics from vibes to piano to double bass are fantastic. i have realized after yrs that all of these numbers and charts and theories are just not that relevent when the rubber hits the road. these drivers do not beam severely, they do not have odd distortions, they do however create a ridiculously wide soundstage with good depth and play well softly and loud. the dynamics are the best part...lightening fast and the decay is exlnt. argue all day but the proof is in the listening. deny climate change or say my ears are ng but i am telling you this from experience i get nightly. fwiw. i listen mostly to high quality sacd's or enhanced cd's of jazz and classical. all full range drivers are different of course, just like a coors light and a belgian ale. the industry is not pushing this set up as it is cheap and easy to diy, otherwise many of you would be listening to them imo.
 
Not a fair comparison. Coors light is truly awful. IMO it's so bad it shouldn't be called beer. AFAIK, from tasting experience, there are no bad Belgian Ales.

I'm currently drinking a Blue Moon.
 
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