Yet another 1060 rebuild

M

MrJackson

Member
Got it into my head I *have* to do a 1060 rebuild, so after reading a long list of threads, I decided to pull the trigger on a local unit selling cheap ($150 ish). Face plate and knobs have some scratches, but it sounds pretty good for an old boy. Had a look inside and noticed a few caps have been changed, but I suspect this was a repair because most are still original.

I’m planning a staggered rebuild, so I’ll start with the preamp board, tone board and amp board, as I’m not using a TT with it (yet anyway).

It’s also gotten in my head to change the volume pot, but I can’t seem to find a proper ALPS with a knurled shaft and loudness pin. I’m not using loudness anyway so I’d ditch it, but I’m not sure if I should put a resistor in there or not. Also, I know it might be overkill but I am also considering a stepped attenuator... just for fun. Opinions on this?

Still, biggest question right now is regarding the output caps. Current options are Audio Note Standard, Mundorf AG+ and Nichicon KG, but I’m open to other suggestions, provided I can source the parts.
 
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MrJackson said:
Still, biggest question right now is regarding the output caps. Current options are Audio Note Standard, Mundorf AG+ and Nichicon KG, but I’m open to other suggestions, provided I can source the parts.
Click to expand...

I'm in the middle of a 1060 rebuild, with another one on deck, and struggled a bit with the question of what to use for the output caps, C006/C007. It sounds like you are leaning more "boutique" than I decided to. You might say I'm too cheap, or I'm just a little skeptical of boutiques, so feel free to ignore my thinking. I decided to start pretty basic, and would still be putting in better parts than what came out of the factory 45 years ago. Then I waffled a little bit and decided to experiment just slightly, so I did buy two sets for fun:
- Cornell Dubilier (CDE) 381LX-series 4700uF 100v 105degC
- Nichicon KG-series (type 1 Gold Tunes) 4700uF 80v

My two recaps will likely be otherwise identical (capacitor-wise), so I will see if I am able to tell any difference. Unfortunately one of the units had a blown output channel, so that P700 board is getting a pretty extensive rebuild, which probably will invalidate my Pepsi Challenge.

As far as changing out your volume pot, I'd come down where I suspect @catrafter Tom is going, on the side of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Just clean and lubricate properly. But if you really love the ALPS, have at it.

Best of luck with your rebuild, the 1060 is a sweet little integrated! Cheers,
Steve
 
GlasgowGrip said:
I'm in the middle of a 1060 rebuild, with another one on deck, and struggled a bit with the question of what to use for the output caps, C006/C007. It sounds like you are leaning more "boutique" than I decided to. You might say I'm too cheap, or I'm just a little skeptical of boutiques, so feel free to ignore my thinking. I decided to start pretty basic, and would still be putting in better parts than what came out of the factory 45 years ago. Then I waffled a little bit and decided to experiment just slightly, so I did buy two sets for fun:
- Cornell Dubilier (CDE) 381LX-series 4700uF 100v 105degC
- Nichicon KG-series (type 1 Gold Tunes) 4700uF 80v

My two recaps will likely be otherwise identical (capacitor-wise), so I will see if I am able to tell any difference. Unfortunately one of the units had a blown output channel, so that P700 board is getting a pretty extensive rebuild, which probably will invalidate my Pepsi Challenge.

As far as changing out your volume pot, I'd come down where I suspect @catrafter Tom is going, on the side of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Just clean and lubricate properly. But if you really love the ALPS, have at it.

Best of luck with your rebuild, the 1060 is a sweet little integrated! Cheers,
Steve
Click to expand...

Heya Steve! Yeah, I guess I’m targeting something a bit more boutique, but not thaaat much (some stuff I saw was 10x more expensive than the CDEs, but it really doesn’t seem like it’s worth it). I’m kinda leaning towards the Mundorfs because they kinda have the same size as the current Elnas... I’ll make up my kind tomorrow.

As for thr volume pot, can’t hurt. I’m also considering silver wiring for shits and giggles. Not decided yet though.
 
MrJackson said:
Got it into my head I *have* to do a 1060 rebuild, so after reading a long list of threads, I decided to pull the trigger on a local unit selling cheap ($150 ish). Face plate and knobs have some scratches, but it sounds pretty good for an old boy. Had a look inside and noticed a few caps have been changed, but I suspect this was a repair because most are still original.

I’m planning a staggered rebuild, so I’ll start with the preamp board, tone board and amp board, as I’m not using a TT with it (yet anyway).

It’s also gotten in my head to change the volume pot, but I can’t seem to find a proper ALPS with a knurled shaft and loudness pin. I’m not using loudness anyway so I’d ditch it, but I’m not sure if I should put a resistor in there or not. Also, I know it might be overkill but I am also considering a stepped attenuator... just for fun. Opinions on this?

Still, biggest question right now is regarding the output caps. Current options are Audio Note Standard, Mundorf AG+ and Nichicon KG, but I’m open to other suggestions, provided I can source the parts.
Click to expand...
My thread on 1060 Recap: I have used Mundorf AG+, Nichicon KG, EPCOS for 1060 and 2230.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/marantz-1060-recap.568728/
 
catrafter said:
Since I rarely listen loud, I wouldn't give up loudness compensation.


I read somewhere that ALPS pots are knock offs now, is this true?

Tom
Click to expand...

I’ve read similar reports, but only for stuff bought off of eBay / Aliexpress. Reputable sources have originals and I’ve never had issues with the ones I had so far (actually the last one had some noise right at the beginning, when installed in a head amp - something the broken TKD it replaced didn’t have). I’ll give this some thought, but it’s something that I can easily undo, so I’ll probably go ahead with it.

CohibaJoe said:
My thread on 1060 Recap: I have used Mundorf AG+, Nichicon KG, EPCOS for 1060 and 2230.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/marantz-1060-recap.568728/
Click to expand...

Thanks man! Great info there and I’m only halfway through your thread. Pretty sure I’ll go with the Mundorfs, but you’ve given me some ideas regarding some Oils in C401/402
 
MrJackson said:
Pretty sure I’ll go with the Mundorfs, but you’ve given me some ideas regarding some Oils in C401/402
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FWIW, I did this change on a 2245 and couldn't tell the difference. Maybe my ears are not sensitive enough. I'm all for experimentation, and I recommend trying it yourself. But I haven't done this again since my first experiment with it.

IMG_1215.JPG
 
@Steven Tate: those Mundorf's sure do look really cool!

Just my two cents - I had the greenies, did not have the ugly brown films for C401/402 in either of my 1060's, so I bumped up to a 0.33uF/250v Panasonic ECW Polypropylene Film. The capacitance increase based on @Leestereo's well-reasoned recommendation here.

One downside on the specific Panny ECW parts I bought was the leads were just barely long enough for this particular position; for ECW's in this spot I would recommend being careful to get the cut tape packaging with the longer leads. I would definitely also look into the Wima MKP2 0.33uF polypro's.

Full disclaimer: I'm a basic price/performance guy, I have not tried anything esoteric/boutique in this spot (paper in oil, etc.) - but polypropylene films are pretty far up the food chain toward ideal caps so I feel pretty good. YMMV!
 
GlasgowGrip said:
@Steven Tate: those Mundorf's sure do look really cool!

Just my two cents - I had the greenies, did not have the ugly brown films for C401/402 in either of my 1060's, so I bumped up to a 0.33uF/250v Panasonic ECW Polypropylene Film. The capacitance increase based on @Leestereo's well-reasoned recommendation here.

One downside on the specific Panny ECW parts I bought was the leads were just barely long enough for this particular position; for ECW's in this spot I would recommend being careful to get the cut tape packaging with the longer leads. I would definitely also look into the Wima MKP2 0.33uF polypro's.

Full disclaimer: I'm a basic price/performance guy, I have not tried anything esoteric/boutique in this spot (paper in oil, etc.) - but polypropylene films are pretty far up the food chain toward ideal caps so I feel pretty good. YMMV!
Click to expand...
Yep. I just finished a 2230, and it's the first one where I left the greenies in C401/402. It sounded great to me when done, so I think we are talking tiny increments of improvement here.
 
Steven Tate said:
FWIW, I did this change on a 2245 and couldn't tell the difference. Maybe my ears are not sensitive enough. I'm all for experimentation, and I recommend trying it yourself. But I haven't done this again since my first experiment with it.
Click to expand...

Kinda the same for me. Many times I've replaced parts and I could say it was a night and day difference... but it's fun and I love experimenting with these things. Also, as you said in your last post, it might be about small incremental changes, so just switching an output cap might not make a huge difference, but it adds up.

Either way, I had a lot of work to do this past week and didn't have a chance to finalize the BOM until today. I think I have a rough first version now, so I've uploaded to GDocs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dxqNMGNwGXOI7V9gYM5FSBZoYjiPh9gT_UKwcs583JY/edit?usp=sharing

Now to source them.

PS: I would appreciate any feedback on this.
 
Now, call me crazy but I'm thinking about changing C004/C005 to something like a 104M06QC100 from Cornell Dubilier (seems like they should be snubbers anyway). Should try to calculate proper values for those snubbers, but either way...
 
Parts came in. Took awhile to label them properly, preparing for the first rebuild session on Friday.

I think I'll take it all apart and clean the chassis as good as I can. It's dirty as hell in there...

IMG_3716.jpg
 
Started work today... geez, it's a bit more complicated than I expected since everything is soldered together, no connectors. It was (and still is) quite dirty inside, but I'm cleaning it bit by bit.
IMG_3738.jpg

Started with the easy one, P800. Took about an hour to desolder everything, clean and install the new parts (Takman resistors, Nichicon Muse and Audio Note caps, Wima, the works). I'd test it, but considering I have to put most of the amp back together, I'll skip this and pray for the best.

IMG_3749.jpg
 
Hi @MrJackson
I've been in my 1060 a few times and tried out different parts here and there. I'm especially interested in the comparison between the output coupling caps of the KG 4700 abd CDE 4700 of @GlasgowGrip !!
I use an EPCOS 10000uf main and had KG's for outputs but then switched to Elna LOA's. Think I'll swap back to KG as the Elnas aren't as smooth here.

With the tone board, I use Silmic 2 throughout, tried other popular types but they didn't homogenize that well with the character of the 1060. For the C401/402, I tried a few caps but the ones that will stay are a pair of K40Y Paper in Oil Russian caps .22uf, these are wonderful although difficult to fit do be warned. As for the small signals transistors on that board, I went and put in KSC1845/KSA992 and discovered that things didn't sound as "big", like I lost some punch somewhere. After a few months of feeling underwhelmed by something I then put the originals back in and all was good again.
Also I wouldn't change out the pot, but It's your project so you make the call ;)

Screenshot_20200614-093501_Gallery.jpg
 
Hey, @AnalogueBen!

I went with Mundorfs for both the output coupling and the C401/402 (as @CohibaJoe and others were very happy with them). Will let you know my thoughts on this.

Your experience with the transistors scares me a bit. Good thing I didn’t throw them out completely, but I did put them in a bag unmarked... I hope I won’t regret this tho. By the way, were your transistors matched?

In the meantime, I removed everything and cleaned up P400/450. Good thing I had a proper look and noticed that C414/415 are not installed like the silkscreen says... it’s gonna be a bit difficult to put them in there as I’ve got WIMAs everywhere and their short leads don’t allow two caps to share a hole - I’ll mount them on the back of board probably, although I’m wondering how would it work mounted as the silkscreen shows. Looking at the schematic it seems it would be paralleled instead of serialed with C410, which seems like it would lower the capacitance into the gate of H407 a bit, but that’s about it. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Either way, I’ll be taking it slow for the next week and something. I noticed I did not read the service manual properly and I didn’t order enough resistors. Also figured I’d change the RCA sockets as the current ones are old and very oxidated. New part order, coming up!
 
MrJackson said:
Your experience with the transistors scares me a bit. Good thing I didn’t throw them out completely, but I did put them in a bag unmarked... I hope I won’t regret this tho. By the way, were your transistors matched?
Click to expand...

I've found that on a couple of occasions that originally installed transistors have outperformed the 1845, some others have noticed this on thier equipment that I've read here on AK. I only replace Jap transistors where necessary which hasn't been a real lot, but thats just me and how I choose to do things now.

Interesting pick up on the 2 caps in parallel, I'd find an explanation interesting also. I remember fitting those leads to be difficult, attach to the underside if needed by all means. Oh cool.. I love when I find a brown box at the doorstep! Enjoy
 
MrJackson said:
In the meantime, I removed everything and cleaned up P400/450. Good thing I had a proper look and noticed that C414/415 are not installed like the silkscreen says... it’s gonna be a bit difficult to put them in there as I’ve got WIMAs everywhere and their short leads don’t allow two caps to share a hole - I’ll mount them on the back of board probably, although I’m wondering how would it work mounted as the silkscreen shows. Looking at the schematic it seems it would be paralleled instead of serialed with C410, which seems like it would lower the capacitance into the gate of H407 a bit, but that’s about it. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

C414-C415 should not be in parallel with C410-C411. The silkscreen on the board is just wrong. Based on both 1060's and a 2230 that I've recently rebuilt, plus a 2270 I just put on the bench, I believe you will find that the way C414-C415 were originally installed on your board should match the P400 board layout diagram in the Service Manual as well as the schematic. For example, C414 is the path between J412 and J405, while C410 is the path from J412 to the Emitter of H407 (and also connects to R426 and R428).
 
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