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Altec Santiago Crossover Help Please

Brad Muller

Brad Muller

Super Member
The original crossovers were missing from the units I bought last week. What happened to them... who knows. I will have to find some suitable replacements before I can really demo these beasts. I still feel that I got my $50.00 worth. I guess I'll be looking for the N1201-8A, N1209-8A units? Thanks guys, Brad
 
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Those are XO's for the model 19 and A7 and may be a bit pricey. You can use a generic 2nd order butterworth at 800 to 1200 HZ for demo purposes. Hate to see you spend a lot of $$ on these only to discover they weren't what you thought you were getting. The Santiago have no horns so they aren't a "traditional" Altec speaker.
 
Them ain't Santiago my friend.

You have scored a pair of Valencia's for $50. Good job. Crossover at 800 HZ for stock, 1200 HZ for more of a Model 19 sound.
 
Thanks! Any idea how these stack up against the JBL's in my avatar? I'm just dying to test these out! I think I'm going to go nuts! Thanks again, Brad
 
YO, Intotubes, Read up here:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=142360

Brad:

Any M19 crossovers you might purchase will likely need some amount of rebuild, and thus, you may as well build them from scratch yourself. Either way, you'll be into them for a minimum of $150 the pair. I considered myself VERY lucky to land a pair of N1201-8A for $100 last year.

Please read this thread:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=141129

It's the solution I am presently recommending for 806A/811B owners.

Do we know what stock crossovers came with your speakers?

Brad Muller said:
Any idea how these stack up against the JBL's in my avatar?
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No matter what you do using the stock drivers, I don't think these will stand up well against L300. I suggested in your other thread how to fix the bass using an upgraded version of L300's woofer. How to fix the highs I have well documented here and in other forums....

Edit:

878B Santiago used N801-8A crossover plus 30904 compensation and Zobel network.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/reference/1975-drivers/page07.jpg

2878B Santiago, the Biamp version, came with no crossover, just the 30923 compensation/attenuation network:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/reference/1975-drivers/page11.jpg
 
Do we know what stock crossovers came with your speakers?
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Kind of a mystery as the lit simply says N801 "type". On other systems that used the 411 woofer Altec usually employed an EQ/comp network that was seperate and outboard from a standard N501 or N801 netwrok depending on the horn/driver used, but that doesn't mean that they didn't put something together completely different for the Santiago.

In the case of 9846's, or at least the ones i have, they used the standard N501-8A XO with an outboard 30904 EQ/comp assembly.

Since Brad is missing his networks altogether, i'm totally in agreement with the Zilchster, build from scratch.

Maybe a slightly reconfigured version of the 19 XO, except push the XO point down a little to 900-1000hz.

I would like to see the Santiagos in particular given the "treatment" at the Zilchlab, i think they have a lotta room for improvements over the stock incarnation. IMO 800hz is asking the 411 woofer to play too high while at the same time going down to 800 is quite iffy for the 811 horn.

I'm anxious to see what you guys come up with.:yes:
 
Thanks Zilch. Since the sticker on the back of the cabs says 2878B, I'll have to go with the Bi-amped version of the Santiago's. There is a hole in the back for the crossover, but no crossovers. There is a small crossover screwed to the inside of the cabinet, but not something you'd expect inside these cabinets.:no: You're probably right on the JBL 2235's, the professional version of the 136A. They probably improve most applications.:yes: I just want to get them up and running to see what I think of them. I haven't ruled out keeping them, but with another set of L300 Summits coming this spring or summer, something is going to have to go.:yes: Brad
 
bowtie427ss said:
I would like to see the Santiagos in particular given the "treatment" at the Zilchlab, i think they have a lotta room for improvements over the stock incarnation. IMO 800hz is asking the 411 woofer to play too high while at the same time going down to 800 is quite iffy for the 811 horn.

I'm anxious to see what you guys come up with.:yes:
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Just thinking out loud here, N800-8K, the crossover for 846B Valencia, has a bit of compensation built into it, accomplished by combining an 800 Hz lowpass with what calculates to be something like a 1350 Hz highpass. I haven't verified this with Altec drivers, as the acoustic crossover frequencies will vary somewhat from the calcs based upon actual impedances and other factors. It's certainly clear in the response curves, however, that the HF is well rolled-off by 800 Hz.

I've never supplemented that crossover with the "T-filter" used in 30904, M19, and others, but we're about to come to that in another 806/811 project over on LHF:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18913
 
bowtie427ss said:
Kind of a mystery as the lit simply says N801 "type". On other systems that used the 411 woofer Altec usually employed an EQ/comp network that was seperate and outboard from a standard N501 or N801 netwrok depending on the horn/driver used, but that doesn't mean that they didn't put something together completely different for the Santiago.
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Is N801-8A same as N809-8A without the input jacks?
 

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Zilch said:
No matter what you do using the stock drivers, these will not stand up well against L300.
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And you base this on listening comparisons? Have you experience with the 411 that translates into this statement?

You offer your opinions as though they were established fact, a little "I doubt" or "I don't think" in front of such statements will make them smoother. And more reasonable.

Kind Regards
 
Is N801-8A same as N809-8A without the input jacks?
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I'm not 100% sure on that, the 809 may use heavier guage inductors for higher power handling as that was the "pro" 800hz network. I suspect the topology is the same however.

Surely, you're not suggesting that 411 would stand up well against 136A or 2235H now, are you,
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Just my .02, and consider it's been a while since i've had the pleasure of hearing L300's. But, the bottom end isn't where i'd expect the santiago to fall short in a shootout with L300. I think the santiago would flop on the low mids, and unquestionably with HFE, pure speculation on my part tho.

Despite it's relatively bad press, in a favorable room the 411 in a properly sized and sealed box might surprize you. It's quite authoritative in the bottom two octaves and i don't perceive the power compression and distortion artifacts that are often attributed to the 411.

Further speculation on my part, the 411 would most ideally be suited to a 3 way system with something like an LE8 in the middle.
 
bowtie427ss said:
I'm not 100% sure on that, the 809 may use heavier guage inductors for higher power handling as that was the "pro" 800hz network. I suspect the topology is the same however.
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Well, Tom likely knows, and now that I've put "I don't think" in there, maybe he'll tell us.... :p:

878B Santiago apparently came with 30904 supplemental compensation:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6631

I'm suspecting that's the network Brad has in his cabs.

May we see a pic of that board, Brad, please? Tom has posted a pic of one in another thread here:

attachment.php


The "T" part is not impedance matching, Tom. The compensation curves are different with vs. without it.... :yes:
 
Zilch said:
Surely, you're not suggesting that 411 would stand up well against 136A or 2235H now, are you, Tom?
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I don't know Zilch, I'd have to hear them to compare.

A couple of years ago I was offered a pair of primo L-300s for $800 and I took a pass. I didn't care for the sound, particularly the bass which I considered thick and muddy sounding. So it's not hard for me to consider that the 411 might do as well or better, it's quite conceivable.
 
that's a comp network............... if you can call it that, it doesn't look like a 30904, it's the other model without the zobel for the 411, i forget the model number. There should also be a full section crossover network in there too, do you have an opening that looks like it'd accomodate the N801-8A chassis?

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1975-home/page19.jpg

EDIT: apologies for the redundant info, i didn't see Zilch post #15. It looks like Brads Santiagos are an earlier version with the 30923
 
Tom Brennan said:
A couple of years ago I was offered a pair of primo L-300s for $800 and I took a pass.
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They're going for stupid money now, of course.... :banghead:

bowtie427ss said:
It looks like Brad's Santiagos are an earlier version with the 30923
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Agreed. So, a pair of N801-8As will restore them to stock. They'll likely require recapping, as will the 30923. I'm guessing Wojo would know about that, and the circuit.

I'm still going to argue in favor of the active crossover. That comp filter will work with it as well. With the stock values, it's providing ~9 dB of compensation for the 806's.

Edit: Assuming the N809-8A circuit, $134.74 the pair in parts to build N801-8As from scratch and replace the caps in the 30923s.

A single N801-8A sold for $36.51 on eBay recently; the inside is shown, and it is NOT potted, so it would be an easy recap. There are two pairs currently listed over there; $23.89 to recap the pair with Daytons....
 
Here's the hole in the back. That's all that was there when I grabbed them. Maybe I should ask for my $50.00 back, lol Thanks, Brad
 

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