Hi, Ray, and welcome back!Ok, I get it. Get off my back.
That pricing gets us back under the $100/pair target.
I'll post some more development data this evening.... :yes:
AK Design Collaborative - Insignia-Class Economy Speakers (a.k.a Indignia)
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
That pricing gets us back under the $100/pair target.
I'll post some more development data this evening.... :yes:
My last try at LowQ, I put it into Xover3P and tweaked. It's easily within +/- 2 dB, and sounds good, too. I just can't get 800 Hz - 2 khz knocked down flat with the approach, so it's on to notching, as Gordon originally suggested.
AutoEQ can, though, within +/- 1/2 dB, and here's what we have looking forward. Yellow line's -5 dB, and cyan is -15 db:
[HEY, there's my beer mug! ]
AutoEQ can, though, within +/- 1/2 dB, and here's what we have looking forward. Yellow line's -5 dB, and cyan is -15 db:
[HEY, there's my beer mug!
]Attachments
YamahaFreak
Super Member
Ooh, pretty colors 
Is this a similar representation to the previous 3D graph?
Is this a similar representation to the previous 3D graph?
jimbofish
for TRULY GREAT MUSIC
Would it be safe to order these now presuming that you're going to stick with these drivers regardless of the final crossover design? Or should we wait for a special package price from PE after the project is finished?
It's the same data shown in a different manner, yes, viewed from the top, looking down. The woofer (below 2 kHz) is a little slower decaying than the tweeter, but both are under -15 dB by 1.5 ms, and the few remaining resonances fall below -20 dB.Ooh, pretty colors
I doubt that the package price for the drivers will be lower than these sale prices, though we may save additional on the crossover parts, ultimately.
Pending review by Ray (and yourself and any others willing to join the process at this point,) I'd say the driver set is final. The crossover at post #258 works fine, and those who've heard the Indignias here have been universal in their praise of them.
As you know, we're continuing work on the crossover to improve it even more, and Ray may well voice the system differently (and better) than I did in that version. If you are anxious to build, and want a "leg up" on that, there's little risk in buying these drivers.
The whole deal's under $100 right now, and there's not a heck of a lot of other ways to have such seriously good DIY fun as this, no matter how you package it.... :yes:
Not yet, Ray. I'll try that next, probably. Ultimately, the goal is an integrated approach that does the job with minimal parts cost.
I'm counting on you to show us the way, but I'll keep dorking with it here in the meantime, and documenting what I do....
OK Z, here's what I've been playing with in Harris Tech's XO Pro3. Got a 3rd order HP/2nd order LP just like yours but with the tweeter caps being 6 and 18uF, tweeter L is .25mH, woofer L is 1.5mH, and woofer cap is 8uF. It's not a lot different than your but according to XO Pro it takes that hump out a little although there's still a hiccup there. I need to break out the laptop and learn this procedure in SoundEasy as I think it's probably more accurate.
Oh yeah, add L-pad to taste.
Ray
Oh yeah, add L-pad to taste.
Ray
Indignia V3.4
Here's the results, Ray, spot on what you projected. I certainly like the 2+ kHz crossover point, but it looks like the lowpass could move down just a scritch beneficially. I used 6.2 and 8.2 uF, standard values. Tweeter attenuation is the 7 Ohms in series up front we've been using:
Edit: 7.5 uF (V3.5) is a bit better for the woofer cap. :yes:
We're +/- 1.75 dB now:
It's always good to take a little break from a project, but I must say there's considerable pleasure in getting back to the superb transparency and precision imaging of Indignias.
Here's the results, Ray, spot on what you projected. I certainly like the 2+ kHz crossover point, but it looks like the lowpass could move down just a scritch beneficially. I used 6.2 and 8.2 uF, standard values. Tweeter attenuation is the 7 Ohms in series up front we've been using:
Edit: 7.5 uF (V3.5) is a bit better for the woofer cap. :yes:
We're +/- 1.75 dB now:
Attachments
It's always good to take a little break from a project, but I must say there's considerable pleasure in getting back to the superb transparency and precision imaging of Indignia.
Here's the results, Ray, spot on what you projected. I certainly like the 2+ kHz crossover point, but it looks like the lowpass could move down just a scritch beneficially. I used 6.2 and 8.2 uF, standard values. Tweeter attenuation is the 7 Ohms in series up front we've been using:
Thanks Z. Hopefully I can cut wood on them today and actually get moving on this.
Ray
Indignia Baffle Layout
Dimensioned from center. Build in mirror-imaged pairs:
Tweeter: Cutout 3.00", Flange recess 4.344" (4-11/32") X 0.150" deep
Woofer: Cutout 5.625", Flange recess 6.938" (6-15/16") X 0.125" deep
Port: Cutout 1.5", Counterbore 1.875" X 0.500" deep from rear for ABS or PVC DWV pipe
Duct length: 8" nominal.
Verify against actual driver and duct dimensions.
Tip: Center of the rear of the baffle is the same location as center of the face. Lay out cutouts on the back side, drill pilot holes from the rear, and finish cuts from the front for cleanest results....
Dimensioned from center. Build in mirror-imaged pairs:
Tweeter: Cutout 3.00", Flange recess 4.344" (4-11/32") X 0.150" deep
Woofer: Cutout 5.625", Flange recess 6.938" (6-15/16") X 0.125" deep
Port: Cutout 1.5", Counterbore 1.875" X 0.500" deep from rear for ABS or PVC DWV pipe
Duct length: 8" nominal.
Verify against actual driver and duct dimensions.
Tip: Center of the rear of the baffle is the same location as center of the face. Lay out cutouts on the back side, drill pilot holes from the rear, and finish cuts from the front for cleanest results....
Attachments
Last edited:
Thanks Z. I'm assuming the baffle is stuck on the front so the 14 x 8 is the actual size of the front of the box, right? With a rectangular box that gives me a depth of 10.31 outside. A long skinny sucker...with plenty of room for the port. On ports I tend to just cut a through hole for the pipe OD, mount it flush with the front of the baffle, and then use a roundover bit to flair the front side. Then paint with flat black. It usually comes out pretty well.
Obviously, I didn't get to cut wood over the weekend. Hopefully I'll have some play time tomorrow.
And speaking of PE, what do you guys think about writing this up for one of the PE projects when we get something "finalized"? Wouldn't have to name names but we've got the design objectives, driver selections, enclosure design pretty well worked out. With a crossover to add to it maybe we could get some more folks interested in DIY speakers. And we are using PE drivers.
Ray
Karma Indignia
:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=54352.20
I'm having a pair of baffles milled to the dimensions I provided above. There's a notch has to be hogged out at the bottom of the tweeter opening for the terminals. I just did that with a wood rasp on the prototypes. I've made the flange counterbores "snug." We'll see how the drivers actually fit once they are done. Perhaps you could measure to verify as well.
Dave earlier suggested submittal to PE as a potential feature for their Project Showcase. I'd say that's contingent upon your confirming the quality of the design, and finalization of the crossover. We'll also want to clear this with AK administration, as there's an obvious association with the Forum. If all of that goes well, perhaps PE could offer a "kit" incuding machined baffles to use either with their prefinished cabinets or DIY boxes of the builder's own design.
I'm listening to Peter Gabriel's "DIY" on them right now with your crossover mods. I think AK members are going to like these very much.... :thmbsp:
Yes, that's correct, the PE baffle is ~1" thick, so your calculated depth is in the range. The PE rectangular box is spec'd at 10.5" deep, and the curved one 11.3". That's not quite what the curved ones measure here, and there's heated debate going on in other forums as to the actual volumes, which seem to be somewhat smaller than advertised.
:http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=54352.20
I'm having a pair of baffles milled to the dimensions I provided above. There's a notch has to be hogged out at the bottom of the tweeter opening for the terminals. I just did that with a wood rasp on the prototypes. I've made the flange counterbores "snug." We'll see how the drivers actually fit once they are done. Perhaps you could measure to verify as well.
Dave earlier suggested submittal to PE as a potential feature for their Project Showcase. I'd say that's contingent upon your confirming the quality of the design, and finalization of the crossover. We'll also want to clear this with AK administration, as there's an obvious association with the Forum. If all of that goes well, perhaps PE could offer a "kit" incuding machined baffles to use either with their prefinished cabinets or DIY boxes of the builder's own design.
I'm listening to Peter Gabriel's "DIY" on them right now with your crossover mods. I think AK members are going to like these very much.... :thmbsp:
Dremel rules!
Yeah, I'll be fitting because the x/32 doesn't work with my circle jig, it only does 16ths. I've been known to cut small and fine fit with sandpaper. We'll see what shakes out.
I'll check.
If they've got a CNC router and their disposal I wouldn't think it'd be out of the realm of possibility.
Ray
Happened upon this post while re-reading the thread:
If Ray confirms they're good, it's time to move on building Indignias, I'd say.... :thmbsp:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1899167#post1899167
Two bucks less for the real deal driver sets on sale at PE right now, actually.
If Ray confirms they're good, it's time to move on building Indignias, I'd say.... :thmbsp:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1899167#post1899167
progress
Attached are pics of Indignias 0003 and 0004 (I figure 0001 and 0002 are Z's protos). Getting there. Man, that port gets right snuggly with the tweeter in that layout.
For the new-to-DIY crowd:
-the driver cutouts are done with a router and circle jig. Find your center, set depth for the counterbore, and start at the outside. Move the jig in and continue until you get to the size of the through-hole. Then, and only then, cut through. If you start at the middle then you won't have a center reference for the outer stuff and finding a rabbet bit that's the right size is tough and usually expensive.
-I cut my holes before putting things together. That way if I screw up a hole I only have to scrap one panel. Just me planning on my inevitable stupidity. Also, if the pictures were good enough that you could zoom in on them, the fronts are marked "this side" because in the past I have done cutouts on the wrong side of a baffle thereby un-mirroring them and needing to cut a new one.
-I used a simple butt joint, glue and clamp method to make these as cheap as possible. The box is small enough that I didn't use any bracing inside but I plan on an external brace (cheek pieces) when I get to that part. With the design as is, I could put a side-to-side type brace in with everything glued up. I'll see if I think I need it later.
That's about all I can think of for now.
Ray
Attached are pics of Indignias 0003 and 0004 (I figure 0001 and 0002 are Z's protos). Getting there. Man, that port gets right snuggly with the tweeter in that layout.
For the new-to-DIY crowd:
-the driver cutouts are done with a router and circle jig. Find your center, set depth for the counterbore, and start at the outside. Move the jig in and continue until you get to the size of the through-hole. Then, and only then, cut through. If you start at the middle then you won't have a center reference for the outer stuff and finding a rabbet bit that's the right size is tough and usually expensive.
-I cut my holes before putting things together. That way if I screw up a hole I only have to scrap one panel. Just me planning on my inevitable stupidity. Also, if the pictures were good enough that you could zoom in on them, the fronts are marked "this side" because in the past I have done cutouts on the wrong side of a baffle thereby un-mirroring them and needing to cut a new one.
-I used a simple butt joint, glue and clamp method to make these as cheap as possible. The box is small enough that I didn't use any bracing inside but I plan on an external brace (cheek pieces) when I get to that part. With the design as is, I could put a side-to-side type brace in with everything glued up. I'll see if I think I need it later.
That's about all I can think of for now.
Ray
Attachments
Unless I screwed up in AutoCAD, it should be about the same distance to both driver flanges.
In the stock PE cabinets, the port's gotta get past a frame at the front and the brace in the middle.
[Now, we all watch Ray's glue dry....
: ]
mightym
New Member
Wow,
I'm going to be re reading this thread over and over.
There is A LOT of meat here.
I've learned so much following along and lurking.
Please don't forget to explain what you are doing for us noob's
Keep up the good work guys.
If PE doesn't bend over backwards to promote this project, well..... then they just don't know which side of the bread the butter's on.
John.
I'm going to be re reading this thread over and over.
There is A LOT of meat here.
I've learned so much following along and lurking.
Please don't forget to explain what you are doing for us noob's
Keep up the good work guys.
If PE doesn't bend over backwards to promote this project, well..... then they just don't know which side of the bread the butter's on.
John.