Ortofon 2M Red setup.

[yofi]

Hey all. The tinkering bug is currently hitting.

I dug the moderately maligned (by myself as well) Ortofon 2M Red out of the dark corner of my odds-and-ends box and decided to see if I could set it up proper without IGD this time. Since 2020 I have been using an AT VM95SH, a very smooth performer who solved almost all of my IGD issues after install.

I use a Technics SL-D2 and got the VM95 in a headshell. I guess it can’t really get any easier than that to start up a rotation huh? (P-mount). Started the cartridge all the way forward and slowly crept backwards with the assistance of a simple arc protractor. I decided to track a little heavy like I do with the VM95 and set 2.0g. Some research I did turned up some folks happily running with a little less anti-skate. So I set that at 1.5.

I’m sure it could use a little more work with a better alignment protractor, however it’s not nearly half as bad as I remember. I remember getting awful frustrated with it. But that was back before the digital VTF scale, and back before the Zerostat gun, and back before the consistent multi pronged approach to record hygiene that I have now. Via some AKG K702 headphones, I listened for problems but I also listened to the music. Fast indie rock was very brash and in your face (harsh?) but that recording should be. Jazz and slow quiet duets are very direct and intimate. The 2M Red really nails the timbre.

I’ll keep listening for IGD to rear its ugly head, but so far so good. Give the VM95 a break. I think for a long time I blamed the 2M Red for deficiencies in other areas that I just didn’t realize. Some set up, some tweaking, some living and learning, and maybe it’s not half bad after all.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

@yofi

Great to hear that you are getting this IGD minimised - or perhaps even eradicated altogether!

I wanted to share that I too have spend thousands of hours experimenting, trying to eliminate IGD.

I have come to the conclusion that it is not all about the cartridge. In fact, some of our worst performing carts (IGD) now perform superbly - and completely without IGD.

IMHO, it is all about eliminating micro-movements in the turntable and tonearm; the Eff. Mass. matching with the cart of choice and phono stage settings for loading - which equates to optimised impedance for MC and optimised capacitance for MM.

I know that traditionally, the cartridge always gets the blame for IDG, but - aside from junky $10 cartridges - I no longer believe it at all!

As always, YMMV.

 

[catBot]

I’ll keep listening for IGD to rear its ugly head

Unless you DID use the proper test record (the one with the laterally and the vertically modulated grooves) and the proper measuring equipment (for example - a sound card and a stereoscope from, say, SpectraPLUS SC program) - you have the cartridge missaligned. Everything else -- protractors, mirrors, etc - is just the waste of time.

 

[yofi]

@yofi

Great to hear that you are getting this IGD minimised - or perhaps even eradicated altogether!

I wanted to share that I too have spend thousands of hours experimenting, trying to eliminate IGD.

I have come to the conclusion that it is not all about the cartridge. In fact, some of our worst performing carts (IGD) now perform superbly - and completely without IGD.

IMHO, it is all about eliminating micro-movements in the turntable and tonearm; the Eff. Mass. matching with the cart of choice and phono stage settings for loading - which equates to optimised impedance for MC and optimised capacitance for MM.

I know that traditionally, the cartridge always gets the blame for IDG, but - aside from junky $10 cartridges - I no longer believe it at all!

As always, YMMV.

It’s definitely been an opportunity for learning and growth! Because I didn’t know what I didn’t know, I did just blame the cartridge/stylus for a while. A lot of different discussions just said to upgrade to the blue stylus to get rid of IGD. When you’re already not getting anywhere near the kind of performance you had hoped out of something, spending another $200 to “fix it” never sat right with me. Unless that $200 was on a totally different cartridge.

Unless you DID use the proper test record (the one with the laterally and the vertically modulated grooves) and the proper measuring equipment (for example - a sound card and a stereoscope from, say, SpectraPLUS SC program) - you have the cartridge missaligned. Everything else -- protractors, mirrors, etc - is just the waste of time.

Well in that case, it’s not as missaligned this time as it was in the past. All jokes aside though, I’ve been reading about how to utilize test records. I’m hoping to pick a couple up off of discogs soon and see about implementing more advanced methods of cartridge setup. Both of my tables were purchased over the last 15 years for $20 and $40 respectively. I’d hate to finally make a rest-of-my-life turntable purchase in the next five years and just have the stylus of choice haphazardly carving around.

 

[flavio81]

Unless you DID use the proper test record (the one with the laterally and the vertically modulated grooves) and the proper measuring equipment (for example - a sound card and a stereoscope from, say, SpectraPLUS SC program) - you have the cartridge missaligned. Everything else -- protractors, mirrors, etc - is just the waste of time.

Sorry, this is not good advice.

 

[flavio81]

Hey all. The tinkering bug is currently hitting.

I dug the moderately maligned (by myself as well) Ortofon 2M Red out of the dark corner of my odds-and-ends box and decided to see if I could set it up proper without IGD this time. Since 2020 I have been using an AT VM95SH, a very smooth performer who solved almost all of my IGD issues after install.

I use a Technics SL-D2 and got the VM95 in a headshell. I guess it can’t really get any easier than that to start up a rotation huh? (P-mount). Started the cartridge all the way forward and slowly crept backwards with the assistance of a simple arc protractor. I decided to track a little heavy like I do with the VM95 and set 2.0g. Some research I did turned up some folks happily running with a little less anti-skate. So I set that at 1.5.

I’m sure it could use a little more work with a better alignment protractor, however it’s not nearly half as bad as I remember. I remember getting awful frustrated with it. But that was back before the digital VTF scale, and back before the Zerostat gun, and back before the consistent multi pronged approach to record hygiene that I have now. Via some AKG K702 headphones, I listened for problems but I also listened to the music. Fast indie rock was very brash and in your face (harsh?) but that recording should be. Jazz and slow quiet duets are very direct and intimate. The 2M Red really nails the timbre.

I’ll keep listening for IGD to rear its ugly head, but so far so good. Give the VM95 a break. I think for a long time I blamed the 2M Red for deficiencies in other areas that I just didn’t realize. Some set up, some tweaking, some living and learning, and maybe it’s not half bad after all.

Hi, it seems you have no probems, right? So your alignment is OK.

 

[catBot]

Well in that case, it’s not as missaligned this time as it was in the past.

It is only by highly unprobable chance one can align a cartridge without the instruments and tools.

...more advanced methods of cartridge setup.

There is no such thing as the "more advanced" method. Fiddling with a cartridge by one's naked eye - is not a method at all.
THE ONLY method is to use test records doing proper measurements.

 

[flavio81]

@yofi

Great to hear that you are getting this IGD minimised - or perhaps even eradicated altogether!

I wanted to share that I too have spend thousands of hours experimenting, trying to eliminate IGD.

I have come to the conclusion that it is not all about the cartridge. In fact, some of our worst performing carts (IGD) now perform superbly - and completely without IGD.

IMHO, it is all about eliminating micro-movements in the turntable and tonearm; the Eff. Mass. matching with the cart of choice and phono stage settings for loading - which equates to optimised impedance for MC and optimised capacitance for MM.

I know that traditionally, the cartridge always gets the blame for IDG, but - aside from junky $10 cartridges - I no longer believe it at all!

As always, YMMV.

Hello,

The topic of IGD is misunderstood a lot. Many things can cause IGD.

One of the most frequent culprits is simply worn/damaged records. If you get IGD with such a record and then the IGD disappears when you switch the stylus to a micro-line or shibata stylus, then what happened was that the groove was previously damaged. In other words, the distortion was "imprinted" on the groove. An ellpitical or spherical stylus touches the groove on only one contact point. Thus when such a stylus damages the groove, replay with a conical/elliptical stylus will touch the groove at the exact same point that was damaged. The micro-line or line contact stylus doesn't touch the groove at one point but contacts a wider area (the "line contact") thus the groove damage is not read at all.

Now, let's consider a new record, and you still get IGD. Then here, sadly, one needs to first check if the pressing is of good quality. Sadly many brand-new records have bad pressing quality. So another record should be tested on the same system.

Now, let's consider a record that plays with no IGD on another system, and said system has an ellpitical or spherical stylus. But it plays with IGD with your system.

First thing to suspect is dirty stylus. Let's assume it's clean.

Second thing to suspect is worn stylus. Let's assume you change it to a brand new spherical or elliptical stylus. But the problem persists.

At this time many people will say "alignment issue!" And they are correct if the cartridge azimuth is off, or the offset angle (and thus overhang) is very off, obscenely off. But if you can get a tangential inner null point at something like 55-65mm measured from the center of the spindle, you're good to go. Align azimuth with a good visual aid. Also, inspect the cartridge cantilever and stylus to confirm that they are correctly aligned in azimuth with regards to the cartridge's horizontal plane.

So let's say all this has been overcome, all this checklist is OK yet you still have IGD. Here you need to suspect the tonearm. And it's more frequent than you would think, particularly with second hand turntables. If the tonearm bearings are worn, sloppy, or have play, then this will give distortion in general, for example at the sibilant passages. Also, this has a relationship with cartridge compatiblity, cartridges like many MC cartridges, or the Grado cartridges, will throw back a lot of energy (vibration) to the tonearm and not every tonearm would cope correctly with it. You will ready many stories of people with Grado cartridges and distortions, sibilances, while other Grado users tell their cartridges work perfectly on their systems. Both are telling the truth, i have seen and experienced such thing firsthand.

Now let's say you have done ALL this checklist and you still get strange IGD when playing with an elliptical or line contact specifically. There's a small chance the record was cut with pre-distortion compensation for spherical tips (google "RCA Dynagroove"). Then try with a spherical tip and the distortion should be gone like magic ([[unless the record is damaged...). But in my opinion those records are the minority.

So, in short:

A well pressed record, with no groove damaged, with a cartridge that suits the tonearm, tonearm in good shape, stylus tip in good shape, cantilever/stylus tip mounting with no manufacturing defects, stylus tip clean, overhang reasonably well aligned, azimuth aligned = the result should be no IGD for 99% of the records out there.

Reserve the 1% records for records with inner grooves intentionally cut at very high levels intended only to be played on audiophile equipment. For those you'll need a fine elliptical (i.e. 0.2x0.7mil) or a line contact/shibata/microline stylus. Those records are rare, mind you. Records are cut more conservatively than you would think!!

 

[flavio81]

THE ONLY method is to use test records doing proper measurements.

If you use a protractor, you are doing measuring.
If you use a stylus force gauge, you are measuring.
If you use a cartridge azimuth guide, you are measuring.

These tools are enough to get a very good alignment of a cartridge if the cartridge is well manufactured.

If your cartridge doesn't have good quality control then, yes, with a test record you can further up the azimuth alignment to optimize channel separation; then , you would probably need to mount the cartridge itself slanted to one side instead of straight. A visible proof that the cartridge wasn't manufactured to the best quality control standards. Examples of such cases are available on the ASR forum.

It would be better investment of one's time, then, to get good quality cartridges, and thus not need to fiddle with test records/etc.

 

[yofi]

It is only by highly unprobable chance one can align a cartridge without the instruments and tools.

There is no such thing as the "more advanced" method. Fiddling with a cartridge by one's naked eye - is not a method at all.
THE ONLY method is to use test records doing proper measurements.

None the less, I appreciate unique and exotic takes like this.

 

[yofi]

Hello,

The topic of IGD is misunderstood a lot. Many things can cause IGD.

One of the most frequent culprits is simply worn/damaged records. If you get IGD with such a record and then the IGD disappears when you switch the stylus to a micro-line or shibata stylus, then what happened was that the groove was previously damaged. In other words, the distortion was "imprinted" on the groove. An ellpitical or spherical stylus touches the groove on only one contact point. Thus when such a stylus damages the groove, replay with a conical/elliptical stylus will touch the groove at the exact same point that was damaged. The micro-line or line contact stylus doesn't touch the groove at one point but contacts a wider area (the "line contact") thus the groove damage is not read at all.

Now, let's consider a new record, and you still get IGD. Then here, sadly, one needs to first check if the pressing is of good quality. Sadly many brand-new records have bad pressing quality. So another record should be tested on the same system.

Now, let's consider a record that plays with no IGD on another system, and said system has an ellpitical or spherical stylus. But it plays with IGD with your system.

First thing to suspect is dirty stylus. Let's assume it's clean.

Second thing to suspect is worn stylus. Let's assume you change it to a brand new spherical or elliptical stylus. But the problem persists.

At this time many people will say "alignment issue!" And they are correct if the cartridge azimuth is off, or the offset angle (and thus overhang) is very off, obscenely off. But if you can get a tangential inner null point at something like 55-65mm measured from the center of the spindle, you're good to go. Align azimuth with a good visual aid. Also, inspect the cartridge cantilever and stylus to confirm that they are correctly aligned in azimuth with regards to the cartridge's horizontal plane.

So let's say all this has been overcome, all this checklist is OK yet you still have IGD. Here you need to suspect the tonearm. And it's more frequent than you would think, particularly with second hand turntables. If the tonearm bearings are worn, sloppy, or have play, then this will give distortion in general, for example at the sibilant passages. Also, this has a relationship with cartridge compatiblity, cartridges like many MC cartridges, or the Grado cartridges, will throw back a lot of energy (vibration) to the tonearm and not every tonearm would cope correctly with it. You will ready many stories of people with Grado cartridges and distortions, sibilances, while other Grado users tell their cartridges work perfectly on their systems. Both are telling the truth, i have seen and experienced such thing firsthand.

Now let's say you have done ALL this checklist and you still get strange IGD when playing with an elliptical or line contact specifically. There's a small chance the record was cut with pre-distortion compensation for spherical tips (google "RCA Dynagroove"). Then try with a spherical tip and the distortion should be gone like magic ([[unless the record is damaged...). But in my opinion those records are the minority.

So, in short:

A well pressed record, with no groove damaged, with a cartridge that suits the tonearm, tonearm in good shape, stylus tip in good shape, cantilever/stylus tip mounting with no manufacturing defects, stylus tip clean, overhang reasonably well aligned, azimuth aligned = the result should be no IGD for 99% of the records out there.

Reserve the 1% records for records with inner grooves intentionally cut at very high levels intended only to be played on audiophile equipment. For those you'll need a fine elliptical (i.e. 0.2x0.7mil) or a line contact/shibata/microline stylus. Those records are rare, mind you. Records are cut more conservatively than you would think!!

What a great checklist.

I think I should also emphasize that 95% of my collection is new. I have absolutely experienced hand-me-down fifty year old records come right back to life after a good cleaning with minimal noise. But some of the records I bought in the early 2010’s are just hopeless. They’re resistant to any improvements in record hygiene and knowing what I know now, they just came sounding bad, with distortion and excessive noise baked in. (I don’t go shopping anymore without discogs ready to go, the comment sections are such a wealth of information). Some of these records have been relegated to a hidden shelf buried away in my office. There’s no merit in playing them.

In the early 2010’s I did not understand that the records could be the issue. My collection has doubled since 2019, and almost all of them have been trouble free. That’s really when it began to dawn on me how rough the previous decade was for pressings.

 

[catBot]

the cartridge azimuth

There is no such thing.
You are using the wrong word here.
The azimuth is an angle in horizontal plane - between to directions from an observer. Please check the dictionary.
The angle you are reffering to shoulld be called the roll.

Align azimuth with a good visual aid.

This will acheve NOTHING. Period.
There is no visible difference between the properly aligned cartridge and the one that already produces high distortions in the signal. It is only possible to do with a test record and an instrument (spectroscope, stereoscope or THD meter).

Also, inspect the cartridge cantilever and stylus to confirm that they are correctly aligned in azimuth with regards to the cartridge's horizontal plane.

I repeat, - your naked eye does not allow you to align your cartridge properly. All you can do be looking at it - is to check if the cartridge is there. Nothing else. Period.

 

[catBot]

If you use a protractor, you are doing measuring.

Only if it is about geography. Not if it is about TT/TA.

If you use a stylus force gauge, you are measuring.

This it correct.

If you use a cartridge azimuth guide, you are measuring.

This is an illusion.

These tools are enough to get a very good alignment of a cartridge if the cartridge is well manufactured.

This is nothing more than a wishful thinking.

get good quality cartridges, and thus not need to fiddle with test records/etc.

Any decent cartridge needs precision in alignment. The more accurate one aligns the stylus - the lower the distortions achieved.
It is very silly to spend money on a quality cartridge - and let it just hang there randomly. By one's naked eye it is impossible to align anything.

 

[spark1]

So everyone else is wrong about cartridge alignment and set up?

 

[yofi]

Only if it is about geography. Not if it is about TT/TA.

This it correct.

This is an illusion.


This is nothing more than a wishful thinking.


Any decent cartridge needs precision in alignment. The more accurate one aligns the stylus - the lower the distortions achieved.
It is very silly to spend money on a quality cartridge - and let it just hang there randomly. By one's naked eye it is impossible to align anything.

Sounds like a great topic for its own thread.

 

[JP]

There is no such thing.
You are using the wrong word here.
The azimuth is an angle in horizontal plane - between to directions from an observer. Please check the dictionary.
The angle you are reffering to shoulld be called the roll.

I understand this is your little hobby horse, and while azimuth isn’t an apt word for the mechanism, it is the word the inventors of the technology chose to use decades ago. Trying to change that now is not only pointless, but only serves to confuse people.

 

[Bill Ashton]

OP takes out closeted cart, makes some fine adjustments that he hadn't before, finds now he likes the cart and wants to inform everyone it wasn't as bad as he previously thought it was.

What is the problem here? 'Geez

 

[justjed2]

For me, the easiest way to make the Red listenable was simply to put it on the Bronze body. But, if you have a Bronze, then, why?! On the other hand, lots of folks seem to like the Red as it is. I couldn't get it to sound the way I thought it should, in my system, so I went to the Blue, and never looked back.

It's good to hear that you've made the Red good to hear, enjoy!!!

 

[justjed2]

It’s definitely been an opportunity for learning and growth! Because I didn’t know what I didn’t know, I did just blame the cartridge/stylus for a while. A lot of different discussions just said to upgrade to the blue stylus to get rid of IGD. When you’re already not getting anywhere near the kind of performance you had hoped out of something, spending another $200 to “fix it” never sat right with me. Unless that $200 was on a totally different cartridge.

Interestingly, many listeners, myself included, are of the opinion that the 2M Blue is enough better than the Red as to be a completely different cartridge, even though they're electrically identical. This leads me to the conclusion that it's somewhat dependent on the TT, the associated electronics, and especially the individual, as to whether the 2M Red sounds good, or not very.

While I've moved up the food chain to LOMC carts, my latest is an Ortofon MC X10, with a bonded elliptical stylus, like the 2M Red. Pretty much the same rock, MUCH improved performance over its 2M counterpart.

 

[catBot]

So everyone else is wrong about cartridge alignment and set up?

Yes, everyone who refuses to do the installation/adjusment/alignment properly - by tools and instruments - have zero chance to get their cartridges sound the way vendors specified.
Alas, the fraudulent "industry" selling all sorts of snake oil - those protractors, glass blocks, mirrors, etc, - makes great efforts to spread myths and scums about possibility to fine tune precision hardware by naked eye only. It is like to follow an "advise" to repair one's wristwatch with a sledgehammer.

Remember, the stylus is SO little, the groove is SO narrow, that it is not possible to look at without a microscope. Nowadays advanced stylus shapes REQUIRE the instrumental checks and measurements for proper alignment.
It was somewhat possible in the era of spherical stylii. Even the elliptical stylii were beyond the capability of a naked eye. Shapes like Replicant 100 and MicroRidge/SAS, have gone much further in the area of positioning precision.