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What killed V-FET?

M Jarve

Audio Geek and NGE Freak
I've been reading up on some of this V-FET gear, the Yamaha and Sony units in particular, and V-FET devices, it would seem, are the password to a realm of magical sounding amplifiers.

Of course, it begs the question of "If it was so great, why didn't everyone do it" and given its relatively short production life, why didn't it live on past the 1980's?

So what happened? Was it reliability, cost, or was it just not compelling enough that it could succeed in the marketplace?
 
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Answer: "'Twas the heat!" According to my Tech: "Those things burn." And, I've seen a good many fried Sony V-FET units at his shop....so there's some truth to that. The reliability just wasn't there.
 
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There's no need to keep playing with this topic. Thanks for the camouflage, EW, but it's time for the truth. I did it.
 
For a slightly more serious answer - it seems pretty clear that the combination of cost and competition was what really did them in. When MOSFETs started to show up they were very nearly as good and a lot easier and cheaper to produce. There wasn't enough of an advantage to the VFETs to justify the extra expense.
 
We've discussed this in scattered bits (use search terms VFET* and V-FET*), but let me see if I can summarize, and correct me if I veer:

Strike 1: The amps were very expensive for their power output. Remember, this was the era of the receiver horsepower race. The devices themselves were expensive to make. The reject rate at the semiconductor fab plants must've been rather high, and the VFET line wasn't suitable for making anything else, so VFETs would have to go over big or they wouldn't make it at all.

Strike 2: With the associated gear of the era, especially the speakers, I doubt that anyone could hear enough of a difference to make the expense worthwhile.

Strikes 3 and 4: The VFETs themselves weren't fragile, but they required a special bias supply that had to be absolutely reliable or else the VFET effectively became a short circuit across the main power supply. Sony chose some diodes for this bias supply that for reasons known only to themselves went cocoapuffs after a year or three, and there was no backup. So many of us had our wonderamps go foom-- but that generally happened after the VFETs had already exited the market. Yamaha's amps didn't seem to have this trouble, but they were "statement" amps, and that sort of thing always seems to have a limited life. Halos tarnish and must ever be replaced by something newer, faster and shinier.

It must be said that VFETs have undeniable advantages, and the amps that survive do have a unique sound, at least in my limited experience. EW can tell us if there are any devices/circuits out there now that have some of that sound, but the audio-only market isn't the monster it was back in 1975, and it's not likely that anyone will mass-market an amp that uses unique devices if the mass market isn't so massive.
 
vertical FET.

I think all V-FET fans ought to take a look at the JFET amplifier design that Nelson Pass just published in audioXpress and uploaded to his website: http://www.passdiy.com/amps.htm

I am thinking about building me one of these (and I'm not really a SS guy -- especially DIY SS).
 
Call me a recent convert to V-fet.

I can only reiterate the many postings on the Yamaha B-2 and say that it's a fantastic bargain,and I paid current market value for mine.
I've often cogitated about the operational similarities between V-fets and triodes and wondered whether anyone has tried to build a single-ended amp using V-fets.
Could be an interesting journey. :)
 
Negotiableterms said:
There's no need to keep playing with this topic. Thanks for the camouflage, EW, but it's time for the truth. I did it.
The only truth here is that one person has spoken (written?) the truth and that person is EW. Far too costly to process all those trenches to build the channels in the VFET when the MOSFET is essentially a planar device. And the MOSFET was easily scaled up. Cheap and easy to make, while the audio market was too small to support the limited production and high costs associated with VFETs. :tears: Replaced by the MOSFET. Which is also an nice sounding device......but not as nice as a VFET. :D

tdpatt48 said:
ummm....whats VFET?
Go here: http://www.thevintageknob.org/index.html and read all about VFETs and the gear they were used in.
 
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ByrdWyngs said:
For a slightly more serious answer - it seems pretty clear that the combination of cost and competition was what really did them in. When MOSFETs started to show up they were very nearly as good and a lot easier and cheaper to produce. There wasn't enough of an advantage to the VFETs to justify the extra expense.

So, this leads me to the inevitable question, why haven´t Mosfets replaced Bipolar transistors and led them to extinction?
Jorge
 
EW nailed it.

If Vintagestereo is right as well, it should be noted, however, that reliability problems only affected some of the Sony units, not all, not the "7" hybrids and absolutely not the Yamaha masterpieces.
And that reliability problem wasn't the V transistors themselves but a lousy peripheral circuit design (TA-N88) or lousy peripheral parts selection (4650/5650/5550 etc).

These fantastic devices had a market lifespan that covered the real hifi boom: 1974...1978.
 
hifi_nut said:
So, this leads me to the inevitable question, why haven´t Mosfets replaced Bipolar transistors and led them to extinction?
Jorge
There are a few reasons. First, the BJT was well established with good amplifier designs for many years prior to the arrival of the MOSFET. So it is an imbedded device with many designers. Second, there are far more BJTs (or were at the time most designs were done - they are basically all the same) then MOSFETs available to pick from for these designs. MOSFETs are more 'difficult' to design a good audio circuit for and most designers (I've spoken to a couple) have little idea how to design a MOSFET power audio circuit and see no reason to do so. BJTs are fine for them. And, many BJT designs sound just fine. Probably 99% of the designs out there are BJT. Simple to design (pull it off the shelf and tweak, so to speak) and highly reliable and meet most folks requirements. MOSFET designs are considerably less mature for audio power circuits, more costly and only those who 'want' them make the effort to come up with a design and use them. Want cheap, its got to be BJT. And most companies want cheap.
 
A simple and practical(?) answer. No. Not since ~1980. Have tried to get the process recipe and mask set from both Sony and Yamaha and neither have the info available. Perhaps they are holding onto in order to make a great VFET comeback. :D Somehow, I don't think so.
 
Yamaha B-2 said:
Probably 99% of the designs out there are BJT. ... MOSFET designs are considerably less mature for audio power circuits, more costly and only those who 'want' them make the effort to come up with a design and use them. Want cheap, its got to be BJT. And most companies want cheap.
For home audio this is all too true. Though, if it was MOSFET and not BJT that pushed out VFET, where are all the MOSFET home amps?

But [begins tearing hair out with the madness of it all] MOSFET (or some other form of power FET) is all over car audio. Dominant, even, unless I've been looking at the wrong ads.. De gustibus, my friend, de gustibus aut bene aut nihil.. [must've been reading Chekhov..]
 
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wualta said:
De gustibus, my friend, de gustibus aut bene aut nihil..

Of taste, speak well or not at all? I thought that was about the dead.

I thought Cicero said:

De gustibus, non disputandum est = Of taste, there is no argument.


Latin phrases... you can make ordering a burger into a momentous speech.
 
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