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Will it ever sing again? The Citation Saga Begins

targeteye

targeteye

Super Member
I'm amazed these transformers fit on this chassis. Size 12 foot in a Size 9 shoe:).

Already found several mistakes the original contructor made so its probably very good I decided to completely strip it and start over.

Also, if my previous project is any indication i'll get this one wrapped up next January!

Steve

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Looks like you've got a healthy project ahead of you Steve. It should be well worth it though. :thmbsp:

Good luck with it!
 
Cadillac Kid said:
Love the Citation II. Tube and Iron layout is my favorite design. Keep us updated on your progress.
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X2..... The CIT II was my second amp rebuild... it's a snap with the layout of those boards..... you'll find it very difficult to find anything else that comes close to the Citation sound!!
 
Has anybody tried both the Cit II and the Cit V? How would you characterize the sonic differences if, say, the same preamp were used?

If the difference is great, I may make changes in what I do up.
If the difference is not that great, I'll do up the Cit V which is pretty good cosmetically and works well outside of some microphonics on the 12BY7s. I'll follow this saga as a learning exercise, so hopefully the OP doesn't feel that his thread has been hijacked.
audiodon
 
targeteye said:
I'm amazed these transformers fit on this chassis. Size 12 foot in a Size 9 shoe:).

Already found several mistakes the original contructor made so its probably very good I decided to completely strip it and start over.

Also, if my previous project is any indication i'll get this one wrapped up next January!

Steve
Click to expand...

Yes when you pick up a Cit II it definitely tips towards the back of the chassis :D

I noticed your posts over on the Citation Sound group. Are you planning on repainting the trannies while you have them off?

There's been a few different suggestions for a color match I've come across. Let us know what you find out. With having the trannies off like that you could even get a computer match on the color.

It's great to have the info over on the Citation Sound site to help out with the rebuild.

My Cit IIs are in the cue.:yes:

Cheers

Lar
 
Thanks for the encouragement guys. This amp will be located where the rear is not easily acceptable. I'm contemplating moving the bias , a/c baslance adjustment circuitry behind a removable wood faceplate replacing the originanal aluminum face and bottom.

Steve
 
Hi Lar,
Small uh internet :)

Yes i'm going to repaint the outputs. They are not in that bad of shape but considering you have to pull the amp completely appart to get them off I thought it best to go ahead and paint them because as you know the original paint doesn't hold up after all these years.

I'm with you. I was considering taking a tranny down to the paint store and having it computer matched.

I agree all that information and online help at Citation Sound is invaluable!

steve
 
Given Tubegrashopr's unfortunate luck.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=272643

I'm thinking it would be a good Idea to put a 250ma microfuse in the b+ supply to the output transformer to protect the primary from a direct short of the output tube or other unfortunate event.

http://www.belfuse.com/Data/Datasheets/MQ.pdf.

That coupled with a non-flamable cathode resistor should offer protection against such things.


http://www.vishay.com/docs/30256/nfr0123.pdf

That's my theory anyway. Any flaw in my thinking?


Steve
 
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targeteye said:
Hi Lar,
Small uh internet :)

Yes i'm going to repaint the outputs. They are not in that bad of shape but considering you have to pull the amp completely appart to get them off I thought it best to go ahead and paint them because as you know the original paint doesn't hold up after all these years.

I'm with you. I was considering taking a tranny down to the paint store and having it computer matched.

I agree all that information and online help at Citation Sound is invaluable!

steve
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Check Jim McShanes site I believe he gives the color there or just ask him.
 
Oh yes, it will sing again. And potentially even better than before.

I did the full set of McShane mods, replaced ALL resistors, (except the few that McShane recommends to retain) and all of the tube sockets. That was about two years ago; it has been bulletproof. I highly recommend his rebuild kits.

I also repainted the transformers. I took one of them to a Sherwin Williams automotive finishes store for matching. It is not exact, but they look MUCH better than before.

McShane used to have repro bottom/front plates available. They were sold out by the time I did mine.

Good luck with your project. It is well worth the effort.
 

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targeteye said:
Thanks for the encouragement guys. This amp will be located where the rear is not easily acceptable. I'm contemplating moving the bias , a/c baslance adjustment circuitry behind a removable wood faceplate replacing the originanal aluminum face and bottom.

Steve
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You don't need to if you don't want to.

First off, the AC Balance pots are on mounted on the top of the chassis (BTW, replace the pots - don't try to reuse the old ones). So they are in easy reach.

Second, you need to be sure you have lots of open space above the amp. It needs lots of ventilation! If you have that open space you can easily reach over the top of the amp to the back panel. You can access the bias pots and the selector switch from the front. Just make a drawing or ?? so you can remember how the switch lays out (from the front of the amp full CCW is off, 1 click CW is V10 bias, one more is V9 bias and so on...) and which bias pot is which.

Then run a wire from each meter terminal out one of the small holes already present in the back of the chassis. Make the wires long enough to reach around the front of the amp. Crimp a female .250 spade terminal to each wire. By plugging in your DMM to these two wires you can read the voltages on your meter instead of the stock meter you can't see. Now you can do the setup from the front easily.

Easy, cheap, and totally removable if you want to remove the setup.
 
Nice Project! A note for other Citation owners. Some of these amplifiers were sold in Kit Form. As a result, some kitbuilders were more careful and did better work than others did. It's not unusual for us to have to do more repairs and refurbishing work on kit built equipment as a result. Fisher and HH Scott also offered kits. Sometimes in more involved issues, rebuilding the kit over and replacing defective parts gives better dependable service and longevity.
 
Nice!
If you're going to paint the trasnformers, do yourself a favor and take them somewhere to have the old paint carefully sand-blasted off. (Tape up the leads and and entry points and put a stack of nuts on the threads to protect them )

The original paint job was done without any primer and will continue to flake off even if over-painted. That's the initial mistake I made on my Citation II as I just wire brushed then sanded them off a bit before repainting but they continued to flake off even the new paint. So I had them blasted off (with crushed walnet shells actually LOL) then I hand sanded with 600>800 grit and primed them before using a Rustoleum paint (# 7548838 Dk. Brown) as recommended to me by another Citation II owner (here on this forum IIRC)
They might be initially just a bit lighter than the original paint but I found they darken a bit over time and after nearly 3 years still look great.
Good luck on the restoration and rememeber to heed any words of wisdom from Mr. Jim McShane- as it's a proven formula to get the most from "The Duece"
WopOnTour
 
Yes, please keep this thread going!

What a great picture of your seperated amp...I will also be doing this in the hopefully "not too distant" future.
I have already bought the kits/materials from Jim McShane..now it just the work that needs to be done :)

Lots of pictures and discussion of your project is greatly anticipated and welcome!

Good luck and enjoy!


Rick
 
CLewis said:
Oh yes, it will sing again. And potentially even better than before.

I did the full set of McShane mods, replaced ALL resistors, (except the few that McShane recommends to retain) and all of the tube sockets. That was about two years ago; it has been bulletproof. I highly recommend his rebuild kits.

I also repainted the transformers. I took one of them to a Sherwin Williams automotive finishes store for matching. It is not exact, but they look MUCH better than before.

McShane used to have repro bottom/front plates available. They were sold out by the time I did mine.

Good luck with your project. It is well worth the effort.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words!!

Those trafos look great! Your paint guy did an excellent job of matching - they may look a bit lighter than they were but I believe that is closer to the original color than most. The color darkened over time.

As far as painting procedure, yes - strip them completely. I remove the old paint with a 3M or other quality paint stripping wheel and my air drill - it leaves a bit more "tooth" for the primer to adhere to. I'd recommend nothing finer than 180 or 200 grit be used before priming. Once primed you can use 400 or finer paper. Use a QUALITY automotive primer - I use a grey self-etching primer from the Eastwood Company - not cheap, but really good, and 1 can will do the trafos.

www.eastwood.com

After priming you can use a bit of glazing putty to level any small blemishes in the trafo can if you like.

Then use the automotive paint for the color coat. It is so much more durable than the "hobby" paints.
 
Going for a record for longest rebuild project ever... :) 4 years and counting. It sat in a box in pieces for most of it.

Progress being made lately however.

In the mean time I've accumulated, GE 6550s (tubular), Tung Sol 6550s (coke bottle) and EH-Kt88's.

Should have plenty of output tubes to choose from :). Most likely I'll opt for a set of Red Lions from Jim McShane as well once it get up and singing.

Steve

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