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P-mount Cartridges. Enlighten me, please.

Sticklyman

Sticklyman

Well-Known Member
I have a few questions about T4P cartridges. I couldn't find any good, detailed info when I tried looking on the web, so I thought I would defer to the expertise of my friends here at AK.

1. Do all T4P carts use approximately the same tracking force? I looked at some on lpgear and they were all at least within the same range between 1.25 and 2 grams. Also, I have a Technics SL BD-2 TT that I picked up a while ago, it uses P-mount cartridges, and the counterweight doesn't seem to be adjustable. Is that the case with most turntables that use T4P? Or is this one just not designed with swapping out cartridges in mind?

2. When I was looking for info, I found one website that had a little blurb about T4P carts, and the author claimed that they weren't useful for "serious listening" or some such, since they aren't held as rigidly by the tonearm. Is there any truth to that?

I can't think of anything else at the moment, but I'll add any other questions I think of.
 
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T4P was a standard developed by Technics. The original spec was that the cartridges all weigh 6g and track at 1.25g. Technics made some high end p-mount turntables which have full counterweight adjustability. But most are factory set at 1.25g. Some have a slight adjustability up or down .25g.

You can depend on most p-mount AT, Shure, Stanton, and Pickerings to be in spec (i.e. models without a brush or stylus guard). You cannot depend on Ortofons or Grados. The weight can be off and often the required tracking force is greater than 1.25g. If, for example, the cartridge only weighs 5g, and requires 1.75g tracking force, you are actually tracking 1.5g under what is necessary for optimum play. Some members have claimed that Grados are not as off as their published specs would lead you to believe, but I still believe that for Grado and Ortofon, p-mount is an afterthought and would not consider their specs reliable.

While in the past during the heyday of p-mount there were some top notch cartridges rivaling the best standard mount models, there are still some decent models out there.

When used on a p-mount arm, the cartridge is plugged in and held with a horizontal stabilizing screw. It is easily as rigid as a standard mount. The criticism stems from using a p-mount with an adapter on a standard mount arm. Some adapters (Shure, for example) are very flexy. But AT's is very rigid and works perfectly fine.
 
If you're going with P-mount Ortofon, you would apparently want the 14 stylus. Its recommended tracking force is listed on the Needle Doctor site as 1.25g, rather than Ortofon's usual range. I have weighed my Ortofon TM14 and it does indeed weigh 6g.
 
Thanks for the quick responses, as usual.

Howard, from what you said, it sounds like, given a properly weighted cartridge (as in, not a Grado or Ortofon) one would be safe to use any of them on a non-adjustable arm like is on my Technics table. Is that correct?
 
Ortofon P-mount cartridges

I have buy an Ortofon OM10P cartridge.
I use in my JVC PMount and, it tracks Perfect at 1,25 g.
The Tracking force, recommended is 1,25 g (12,5 mN).
The cartridge weight is exactly 6,00 g.
It, then, fulfill the T4P specifications.
This cartridge can be "Upgraded" changing it's needle. All OM needles fit.
 
Gee Howard, my SL-5 came with an OMP-10. 20ish years later, it plays well for my son with a new OMP-10.

The OMP specs match the P mount precisely. So, you reciting personal knowledge?
 
From personal experience, also recent experience as I just pulled out my p-mount cartridge collection and my digital scale to refresh my memory.

I have two different off-white Ortofon TM cartridges. Without a stylus, they weight 5.7 grams and 5.9 grams. My newer black OMP cart weighs 5.7 grams. All three came to me used, mounted on used turntables.

My Ortofon 10 stylus (recent production) weighs around 0.1 grams.

The Ortofon web site lists the OMP10 cartridge as weighting 6.0 grams, heavier than what I measured. It also lists a recommended tracking force of 1.25 grams, right on the p-mount standard. However, the page for the replacement 10 stylus (presumably the same 10 stylus that ships on the OMP10) contradicts this, listing a recommended tracking force of 1.5 grams, the center of a range from 1.25 to 1.75 grams. See http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=66 and http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=215&Itemid=188.

Together, my OMP body and 10 stylus weight 5.8 grams. On a properly calibrated (but unadjustable) p-mount turntable like my Technics SL-BD22, this would result in a tracking force of 1.05 grams, outside of the 1.25 to 1.75 tracking force range for the 10 stylus. Not good.

The old TM line of p-mount cartridges were sold with different numbered stylii (7 and 14) that were designed to track at 1.25 grams. There is also the possibility the masses (and recommended tracking forces) of the Ortofon numbered stylii have changed over time, which is why the cartridge masses have varied as well.

For comparison sake (and to prove to myself that my scale wasn't off), my favorite Ortofon p-mount cartridge, the high output moving coil X1-MCP, weighed at the standard 6.0 grams. The Ortofon-manufactured Digitrac 200NE also weighed 6.0 grams, so not all Ortofon cartridges are off the T4P specs.

I have a Digitrac 200NE put aside for when I give the SL-BD22 to my daughter as her first turntable.
 
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Exactly. I was basing my statements on the discrepancies SA-708 described. The specs of the original OMP-10 may conform, but the replacement stylus does not. Not all Ortofons are guilty, but you have to know what you are buying. For those who want to take a chance, fine. Worst case scenario, one can always use a digital scale and add weight as necessary to the headshell end with blu-tack
 
Sticklyman said:
Thanks for the quick responses, as usual.

Howard, from what you said, it sounds like, given a properly weighted cartridge (as in, not a Grado or Ortofon) one would be safe to use any of them on a non-adjustable arm like is on my Technics table. Is that correct?
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Yes, but as I stated in the post above, there is a workaround. If you want to chance an Ortofon or Grado, given the inconsistencies in their literature, I'd purchase an inexpensive digital pocket scale, measure the tracking force, and add blu-tak or some kind of putty to the headshell end of the arm until you reach the required tracking force for the stylus.
 
For the record, the knock on the Grado Prestige p-mounts is that the specifications (they publish the same for both p-mount and 1/2 inch mount versions) are 5.5 grams cartridge weight, and 1.5 grams tracking weight. That said, my Silver (not Silver1) p-mount does measure at 6 grams on my digital scale, so they may be adding mass to the p-mount models, and not adding that detail to their published specs.

I do get better results when tracking my Silver p-mount at the recommended 1.5g than the T4P spec 1.25g
 
The recommended tracking force for the Stylus 10 considers that the stylus is used on non-P mount carts as well. It tracks as well at 1.25 grams on my Thorens TD-195 as it does at 1.5 grams.

All of the back and forth is getting away from the OP's question. For his TT, any T4P cart will be "safe to use".
 
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The discrepancy for Ortofon's 5E stylus is worse. They sell it as part of the OMP5E cartridge, even though the cartridge weighs 6 grams, and the stylus has a recommended tracking force range of 1.5 to 2.0 grams.

Any T4P cartridge will be safe to use. The problem is, not every cartridge with a p-mount connector meets the T4P specs. I guess it all depends on how comfortable one is with using a cartridge that may not be within the tracking force range of the stylus.
 
SA-708 said:
The discrepancy for Ortofon's 5E stylus is worse. They sell it as part of the OMP5E cartridge, even though the cartridge weighs 6 grams, and the stylus has a recommended tracking force range of 1.5 to 2.0 grams.

Any T4P cartridge will be safe to use. The problem is, not every cartridge with a p-mount connector meets the T4P specs. I guess it all depends on how comfortable one is with using a cartridge that may not be within the tracking force range of the stylus.
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Using too light a tracking force can damage records. I don't consider that "safe to use."
 
While were talking T4P, Anyone have any experience with the LP Gear branded AT p-mounts? I was thinking of their hyper elliptical or Shibata VH and VS models for a Technics SL-10 I'm getting, but haven't heard much about their sound - they do claim it weighs 6 grams at least...

Ideally I'd like a cart for the SL that sounds somewhat comparable to the DL-160 on my Pioneer TT.

Right now there's an Ortofon OM 10 on the SL-10, so I guess I could just get a new stylus for it, but for the cost of an upgraded stylus, it's not much more for a new cart.
 
hakaplan said:
Using too light a tracking force can damage records. I don't consider that "safe to use."
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I agree. The point I was trying to make was that if it doesn't have the right mass and recommended tracking force, it isn't a T4P cartridge. Its a p-mount that fails the T4P standards. IMO, the OMP5E is not a T4P cartridge.
 
Sleep said:
While were talking T4P, Anyone have any experience with the LP Gear branded AT p-mounts? I was thinking of their hyper elliptical or Shibata VH and VS models for a Technics SL-10 I'm getting, but haven't heard much about their sound - they do claim it weighs 6 grams at least...
Click to expand...

I've not tried the LP Gear branded stylii for that range of AT cartridges. I do have one with the AT-made .2x.7 mil elliptical, and it is a fine cartridge that meets the T4P standards. AT used to make a Shibata cartridge & stylus in that series, so its not that wild of idea.

Ideally I'd like a cart for the SL that sounds somewhat comparable to the DL-160 on my Pioneer TT.
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I'm not too familiar with the DL-160, but the Ortofon X1-MCP is the only HOMC T4P cartridge still in production. Perhaps someone who has heard both will chime in.
 
Which P Mount cartridge is your best bang for the buck? I would like to upgrade my shure and not sure what direction to go.
 
ToddB said:
Which P Mount cartridge is your best bang for the buck? I would like to upgrade my shure and not sure what direction to go.
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That's exactly what I am hoping to learn here. I have quite a few T4P TTs ranging from cheap to high end and I'd like to get a top range cart for at least one of them.
 
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