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78 Phono Preamps ?

guiller

guiller

Toscaninichus Australis
I would like to add a dedicated phono preamp just for my 78 RPM setup ( Dual 1019 + Stanton 78 rpm MM cart ). The idea is to never use this setup for LP auditioning. I've found a cheap switchable RIIA-78 phono preamp, the TCC TC-778 RIAA in the 60-70 $ range. This one doesn't have any adjustable parameters.

There are also more expensive, higher quality, and more flexible (meaning adjustable for different recording companies and periods) models like the Graham Slee ones http://www.phonostagepreamp.com/revelation-phonostagepreamp.htm (here we are in the 800 or 900 $ price range). The Vadlyd models also fall in this category ( http://www.vadlyd.dk/English/RIAA_and_78_RPM_preamp.html ) and are more expensive. The Smart RME 1950 seems to be also a good unit: http://www.smartdevicesinc.com/remaster.html, but in order to find out its price you have to phone them! The Rek-o-kut re-equalizer II seems good and priced more moderately at 350 $ : http://www.esotericsound.com/elect.htm . Is there any feedback on it out there?

There is also the DIY route, as proposed in, e.g., http://sound.westhost.com/project91.htm . The project has lots of adjustable parameters, which seems to be the goal in this field. There is another project in here: http://www.rfwilmut.clara.net/repro78/circuit.html

I would like to experiment a bit before investing money in this project. As I don't have much free time for the DIY project, which would be my preferred choice because of the cost/flexibility factor, I was think about ordering the cheap TCC preamp, which should at least be better than playing my 78 rpms though a RIIA phono preamp (like the Clearaudio Nano that I'm using now). If I get enthusiatic about the results, I might gain forces for facing the DIY project. Do you find this to be a reasonable perspective?

Are there any other models in a price range below 200 $? I would be interested in models that provide equalization for 78 rpms only.

Many thanks in advance for any feedback.

PS: most of my 78 rpm records are UK made HMV and USA made Columbia ones, and all of them are classical music ones. I mention this because I might not need so many possibilities, after all, since those records are pretty common ones.

PS2: I'm not interested in converting the analog information into digital data (I am aware that there is some software that would correct the RIIA eq for 78 rpm records)
 
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Very few 78 discs were cut with RIAA curves. And those are often late issues. The Graham Slee unit is a good audiophile phono stage with archivist flexibility. The Rek-O-Kut re-equalizer is very fine for your job as a secondary phono stage.
 
My Experience

guiller said:
As I don't have much free time for the DIY project, which would be my preferred choice because of the cost/flexibility factor, I was think about ordering the cheap TCC preamp, which should at least be better than playing my 78 rpms though a RIIA phono preamp (like the Clearaudio Nano that I'm using now). If I get enthusiatic about the results, I might gain forces for facing the DIY project. Do you find this to be a reasonable perspective?


PS: most of my 78 rpm records are UK made HMV and USA made Columbia ones, and all of them are classical music ones. I mention this because I might not need so many possibilities, after all, since those records are pretty common ones.

PS2: I'm interested in converting the analog information into digital data (I am aware that there is some software that would correct the RIIA eq for 78 rpm records)
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If your ultimate goal is to convert to digital, I suggest the method I'm using.

Buy a flat pre-amp Tracertek has a couple of models available. I have the "Plain Jane" version. It's adequate, but susceptible to outside interference. Make sure you can use it away from other electronic devices. My DSL wireless router gave it fits until I moved it.

Purchase Diamondcut's DC8 software. You can get earlier versions for less, but there are some significant enhancements in DC8 the translate directly to better sounding restorations. Record to your computer using the flat pre-amp. Do you have a good sound card? I use M-Audio's 2496.

DC8 has two ways to set the EQ for 78's. The easier method is the VPA, the Virtual Phono Pre-amplifier. It has three easy settings: flat for acoustic, American 78's and European 78's. I've found these usually adequate. There's also a parametric equalizer with some defined presets for various turnover and treble de-emphasis.

The older the 78, the more difference you'll here between correct 78 EQ and RIAA EQ. Late 78's especially RCA Victor's, use an EQ that's pretty close to RIAA, which was based on the late RCA 78 EQ. You'll hear a big difference in early electrical 78's the ones from the late 20's and of course acoustic 78's really improve.

DC8 has some great noise reduction/restoration tools. They are most effective when used with clean 78's, I hope you have a way to clean your collection. The reason I suggest DC8 over its predecessors is the new crackle filter. It really does a great job, it makes the continuous noise filter more effective at removing noise without removing content.

I have some commercial CD's with restorations of some 78's I own. I don't know there sources, but in many instances I think my restorations sound better!

PS I plan to upgrade to a better preamp. I'll either use the DIY you've provided here or build a modded Bugle unit.
 
DougMac said:
If your ultimate goal is to convert to digital, I suggest the method I'm using.

Buy a flat pre-amp Tracertek has a couple of models available. I have the "Plain Jane" version. It's adequate, but susceptible to outside interference. Make sure you can use it away from other electronic devices. My DSL wireless router gave it fits until I moved it.

Purchase Diamondcut's DC8 software. You can get earlier versions for less, but there are some significant enhancements in DC8 the translate directly to better sounding restorations. Record to your computer using the flat pre-amp. Do you have a good sound card? I use M-Audio's 2496.

DC8 has two ways to set the EQ for 78's. The easier method is the VPA, the Virtual Phono Pre-amplifier. It has three easy settings: flat for acoustic, American 78's and European 78's. I've found these usually adequate. There's also a parametric equalizer with some defined presets for various turnover and treble de-emphasis.

The older the 78, the more difference you'll here between correct 78 EQ and RIAA EQ. Late 78's especially RCA Victor's, use an EQ that's pretty close to RIAA, which was based on the late RCA 78 EQ. You'll hear a big difference in early electrical 78's the ones from the late 20's and of course acoustic 78's really improve.

DC8 has some great noise reduction/restoration tools. They are most effective when used with clean 78's, I hope you have a way to clean your collection. The reason I suggest DC8 over its predecessors is the new crackle filter. It really does a great job, it makes the continuous noise filter more effective at removing noise without removing content.

I have some commercial CD's with restorations of some 78's I own. I don't know there sources, but in many instances I think my restorations sound better!

PS I plan to upgrade to a better preamp. I'll either use the DIY you've provided here or build a modded Bugle unit.
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Thanks for all the data. Due to a typo, the meaning of what I wanted to say was reversed! Sorry about this! I´m not interested into archiving in digital files, but in on-the-fly reproduction.
 
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KentTeffeteller said:
Very few 78 discs were cut with RIAA curves. And those are often late issues. The Graham Slee unit is a good audiophile phono stage with archivist flexibility. The Rek-O-Kut re-equalizer is very fine for your job as a secondary phono stage.
Click to expand...

I can imagine that the Graham Slee is a great unit, but whose cost is probably not justified for my needs. So, the Rek-O-Kut re-equalizer seems to be good choice at 350 $. Thanks for the input. I was also looking for used units, but found none. This seems to be a very small market.
 
TCC Amp

guiller said:
Neither mine, but my thought was that it is cheap and it would do a better job than my RIIA phono preamp anyway.
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I looked up the info and I can't see what EQ they use for this unit. I think that would be a big factor in determining whether the unit would be worth fooling with.

Do you have any acousticals? I don't see where one option would work for both acoustic and electric 78's.

If you're not into DIY and you want to EQ on the fly, I don't see how you'll get enough flexibility for less than $350.
 
My setup is for good playback (not archiving) of 78s and I primarily use 4 EQ settings, US/Euro/Columbia/Acoustic depending on the particular disc. One thing that really helps playback quality is a variable scratch filter. My Quad preamp has 4 settings (5k,7k,10k, off) and a variable filter slope so that I can dial in maximum noise reduction without losing too much music. Mostly I use 5k for acoustic, 7k for 30s recordings and 10k for 40s but with exceptionally worn out records I might opt for a more aggressive noise reduction setting.

A Quad would probably be too much of a DIY choice for you right now but I thought I'd mention the usefulness of the variable scratch filter.

Quadpreamp003.jpg


edit: Prompted by your post I fired up the 78 rig this morning to listen to a box of records I got last month. Currently enjoying Lionel Hampton's "Hey Ba Ba Re Bop"

Here's what it sounds like incorrectly EQ'ed with no scratch filter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIL7-C9PCZs Why would people listen to them that way?
 
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DougMac said:
I
Do you have any acousticals? I don't see where one option would work for both acoustic and electric 78's.
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I guess it should be designed with the later 78 American records (Columbia, for example) in mind as it is targeted for the American market (no reseller in other countries). I don´t have any acoustic records, just standard late 78 rpms of classical music mainly on Columbia, Pathé (France) and HMV (UK) labels. Given that this simple preamp doesn´t have any controls, I guess it was assumed that the most common labels are the ones to be matched.
 
Scuzzer said:
My Quad preamp has 4 settings (5k,7k,10k, off) and a variable filter slope so that I can dial in maximum noise reduction without losing too much music.
Click to expand...

I see that your preamp is suited for this type of listening habits. I am looking mainly for just a phone preamp since I couldn´t feel happier with my Audio research LS-3 preamp and have no intention of replacing it!

Scuzzer said:
edit: Prompted by your post I fired up the 78 rig this morning to listen to a box of records I got last month. Currently enjoying Lionel Hampton's "Hey Ba Ba Re Bop"
Click to expand...

Great! Enjoy it!
 
guiller said:
I am looking mainly for just a phone preamp since I couldn´t feel happier with my Audio research LS-3 preamp and have no intention of replacing it!
Click to expand...

I was going to build Rod Elliot's preamp that you linked above but it didn't have a scratch filter provision. With your requirements (late era 78s) I would think his preamp would be perfect especially if you're going to be hooking it up to your LS-3. If I were you I'd skip the cheap off the shelf ones and just build it since I'm guessing you're enough of a perfectionist to want better than just OK performance.
 
Scuzzer said:
I was going to build Rod Elliot's preamp that you linked above but it didn't have a scratch filter provision. With your requirements (late era 78s) I would think his preamp would be perfect especially if you're going to be hooking it up to your LS-3. If I were you I'd skip the cheap off the shelf ones and just build it since I'm guessing you're enough of a perfectionist to want better than just OK performance.
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Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the good advice. It is probably either this or buying the Rek-o-kat, at least until a better suggestion is made!
 
Guiller - I am currently using a dedicated Audio Technica LP-120 turntable and Audio Technica phono preamp plus a Gemini 15-band equalizer to play my 78s. (I got the turntable and equalizer with my business credit card points, so the cost was zero. And I only paid about $48 USD for the preamp.) In any event, I went this route so I could dip my toe into the world of 78s and still have variable speed capabilities with a turnatable (since not all "78s" were recorded at 78) and be able to "equalize" from the RIAA curve to something approximating the recording curve (or lack thereof) used at the time of the original recording.

I looked at the various Esoteric Sound (Rek-o-kut) stuff but didn't want to pay his very expensive prices. (However, I have heard that he deals on the price.) I also did an Internet search as you did and found that it appears that nothing is made by Rek-o-kut, but is merely relabelled TCC, Smart or Audio Technica gear...which can all be found cheaper than what Esoteric Sound provides.

Further, using the equalizer is somewhat of a pain if you play a bunch of different labelled 78s. However, it sounds just fine. Because I have been given a fairly large collection of 78s (approx. 500) representing multiple record labels, I will probably move to a Staton st.150 turntable (which plays 78s) with either the Smart or Esoteric Sounds Rek-o-kut variable preamp sometime in the near future.

If you can find a cheap equalizer (that doesn't make too much noise in and of itself), maybe you can play around with that before you make the "big" purchase. I have found sound very good 78 equalization curves if you would like to have them. If so, please drop me an e-mail.

Thanks,

Bob.
 
porkchop said:
If you can find a cheap equalizer (that doesn't make too much noise in and of itself), maybe you can play around with that before you make the "big" purchase. I have found sound very good 78 equalization curves if you would like to have them. If so, please drop me an e-mail.

Thanks,

Bob.
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Hi Bob,

Thanks for your input! As for the equalizer, I do have a Nikko EQ-1, which is a good equalizer, but I got rid of it in my system to have a cleaner path from the source through the speakers. My preamp doesn´t even have tone controls. The point is this equalizer has to be connected through the tape loop, and it messes everything up. I would like to have something that equalizes just the phono input for the 78 rpms and nothing else.

Perhaps I should follow the DIY route, as has been suggested already to me. The main difficulty for me is the time involved in getting all the components. Are there any phono preamps of this sort in kit version? That would probably my best bet.
 
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Just an option...if your Dual turntable is dedicated to just playing 78s, you can take the output from the phono preamp (if you use one) and connect it directly to the equalizer input and then connect the equalizer to an AUX input on your preamp from the equalizer's output. You can now use your equalizer without impacting the rest of your system. But you probably already know that.

Just a thought...

Bob.

PS. By the way, your location "says" Buenos Aires. My question to you is: Boca or River? :-)
 
porkchop said:
Just an option...if your Dual turntable is dedicated to just playing 78s, you can take the output from the phono preamp (if you use one) and connect it directly to the equalizer input and then connect the equalizer to an AUX input on your preamp from the equalizer's output. You can now use your equalizer without impacting the rest of your system. But you probably already know that.

Just a thought...

Bob.
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Hi Bob,

Thanks for the input. The reason I never considered the scheme you are mentioning is that my equalizer is designed for having inputs and outputs with impedances and signal levels typical of the high-level class (aux/tuner/cd/tape). Connecting directly the output of the MM cart would provide signals with different impedance and a signal level 1 or 2 orders of magnitude smaller. I never thought in detail if this mismatch between signals could produce any good results, dismissing the procedure without carrying on any experimentals tests. Did you actually tried this scheme? I would be much interested in knowing if my theoretical objections are irrelevant in practice! This would be the most practical solution, at least for the time being.


porkchop said:
PS. By the way, your location "says" Buenos Aires. My question to you is: Boca or River? :-)
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Neither actually! I'm not a big soccer fan. Whenever I have time to watch a good game, I choose the great Barcelona of Guardiola, which gives me lots of aesthetic reasons to like its playing, I just don't care for those defensive teams that value winning at any cost.
 
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guiller said:
Perhaps I should follow the DIY route, as has been suggested already to me. The main difficulty for me is the time involved in getting all the components. Are there any phono preamps of this sort in kit version? That would probably my best bet.
Click to expand...

There is a quite reasonable specification preamp kit from Jaycar here in Australia which was designed by electronics magazine Silicon Chip – it has options to set up to three different sets of RIAA characteristics, and includes the info on the components required for different record companies’ 78rpm equalisation – it comes with the required components. It’s available here http://www.jaycar.us/productView.asp?ID=KC5433 , and the metal box to put it in is here http://www.jaycar.us/productView.asp?ID=HB5042 . They sell to overseas customers – I’ve linked to the USA section of their website. It runs from a 12VAC plug-pack (wall wart), which should be bought locally to suit your local power supply voltage. Everything including the circuit board, components, instructions and even solder are included – the only thing you need is a soldering iron and some tools such as cutters and pliers, and some metal work tools (drills, files etc) to cut the required holes in the box. The settings for equalisation are changed using jumpers on the circuit board, but switches could be used for more frequent changes.

There’s an article on the web on how someone built one, although they put theirs into a plastic case, which isn’t recommended – a metal box is best for shielding – see http://diyaudioprojects.com/Chip/Phono-Preamp-Kit/ .
 
The TC-778 is probably an OK unit, but very limited. I believe it uses a 500 Hz turnover and 0 db rolloff which would be useful for many but not all mid 30's recordings and a so-so job with acoustical recordings.

I use the TC-750LC preamp running into the Rek-o-kut re-equalizer. I am very pleased with the results. The advantage of the TC-750LC over the regular TC-750 is the adjustable output level. This really helps on some 78's, particularly mid 30's US Victors which were very hotly recorded.
 
Thanks for the links! Those kits seem right what I was looking for. I´ll study them with more time, but thanks again for sharing the data!
 
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