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Lubricants for Dual 1219 / 1229 - What to use?

wcarroll

wcarroll

AK Subscriber
Subscriber
Hi, I just took a peek at my Dual 1219 service manual and it calls for the following types of lubricants:

1. Wacker siliconoil AK 300 000
2. Adhesive oil, Renotac No. 342
3. BP oil, super vitkostatic 10W/30
4. Shell Alvania No. 2
5. Isoflex PDP 40

Looks like #'s 3 & 4 get used the most. I take it that a good non-detergent 10W/30 automotive oil would be fine for #3 and that perhaps #4 would be a grease like Lubriplate or Phonolube? Any ideas or experiences in substituting for the others?

#1 is used on the tonearm, #2 on the spindle, and #5 on the motor. #3 & #4 are for the various linkages, pivot points, etc. underneath.

Thanks!
 
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synthetic motor oil...

I'd be inclined to use synthetic motor oil (i.e. Mobil 1) rather than regular motor oil.... sure it costs more, but we are still talking about a difference of less than $5, for a quart of oil that will likely be enough to lube 100 turntables....

I know, you could hold a turntable clinic!!

Depending on the grade of oil recommended, you could use the surplus oil in your gas mower, car, or other 4-cycle engine.

EDIT: I decided to put my money where my mouth is and bought a litre of Mobil 1 0W-20 synthetic motor oil..... A few drops will be used to lube the TT bearing in my Thorens TD-166 MkII, I'll keep some extra in a small plastic "oil- can" for future use, and the rest will end up in the crankcase of my Honda Civic.

Grumpy recommeds sewing machine oil... but I like the idea of synthetic motor oil. Decided to try the lowest viscosity synth oil available.
 
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"2. Adhesive oil, Renotac No. 342" - Lucas Oil additive. I used it on our oven clock, because everything I tried would spin/fling off. LOA really clings on. I've also used it on various electric motor bearings, with good results.
 
OK, where do you find this stuff, but I'm not looking for a 55 gallon drum either! :yes:
 
You are the blind, leading the blind. Everyone is referring to the manual, guessing what these oils are and where they go. Person 'A' says sewing machine oil; 'B' says Mobile 1.
You need to understand that this model is complex, and very easy to f*** up.
Also, you need to repeat after me, "If it ain't broke, then don't try to fix it."
Use plain, ordinary 10W40- [nothing thicker or thinner] car engine oil on the motor, platter bearing and support, idler support rod, knob shaft bushings, under-chassis lever pivot-points.
Clean the gear, but use nothing to replace that grease. Everyone seems to ruin that gear, by getting grease all over everything. The trip prawl is too easy to foul up. You can use 'PhonoLube', but it will still muck things up if/when it gets into all the little doohickies on the gear.
I always drop the platter bearing, clean, and then re-oil. Can you attempt that?
Also, the motor needs to be split open to get oil into the top bushing.
Unless the cueing is fast, leave it alone. W/O the previous experience of a disassembly, replacing that Wacker 300,000 weight damping paste (fluid) can lead to breaking things, including the all-plastic rear-gimble height-adjuster. Also, the arm may bind afterwards. Never think that anything from AutoZone can do the job of that damping paste.
Lightly sand the idler wheel with 600+grit emory paper, while it is being spun by the motor. Clean the platter inner rim, and motor pulley with vodka. Drink the rest.
Tighten up on the arm bearings, if you dare. This is best done with the tonearm in your hand; uninstalled from the machine.

Also, order the guide-white and the washer; part #s 216-845 and 223-777, from [WWW.turntableexperts.com] They must be replaced.

FYI- The 1st Dual that I fixed, I broke. This was in 1975, and I learned from my errors.

Seth
Forever Analog
 
thanks for setting us straight....

Seth.. thanks for sharing your experience!

Admittedly I have no knowledge of the Dual 1219 turntable innards.

My comments re: synthetic oil were really intended to generate a bit of discussion on whether a synthetic motor oil would be a better lubricant than conventional motor oil of the same viscosity.

I still believe that synthetic oil would be superior lubricant for most applications, but would be interested to know why you feel that regular motor oil is more appropriate.
 
Auto engine parts are simply coated with oil. The bearings in the Dual motor are porous, and absorb the oil. If the motor bearings are introduced to something else, do you need to have problems?
If the motor bearings are worn, no fancy oil will fix that.

Seth
Forever Analog.
 
Oil is a bad thing

At least when incorrectly used on a turntable. I bought a 1219 from someone who had liberally oiled it prior to sale. After a few hours of use the oil had spread over the gear and various other parts and the table would no longer turn off. I had to disassemble it (with Seth's guidance) and clean the excess oil off in order to get it working again.

Lou
 
Thanks Seth and others. I'm not gonna break it... I'll be careful! :thmbsp: I'm not one to coat everything with WD40 or to fix things that don't need fixing. Learned that lesson a long time ago. :yes:

Anyway, I'll stick to cleaning up the old, dried-up grease, lubricating the platter bearing, and sanding / cleaning the idler wheel + inner platter rim. The motor is fine and the cueing works great, so I won't mess with them.

rek50, I'd be interested in where to get the adhesive oil as well.
 
LOA can be found at most Auto Parts Stores. I don't pretend to be a "Tribology" expert, but have found LOA to work for many applications, but then again it's a matter of perspective, "Is it a turntable, or is it a Heart Valve?"...
 
I am certain that this stuff has its uses, but keep it away from the Dual; especially the damped cue mechanism, the gear, and all other moving parts.

Seth
Forever Analog
 
Absolutely Right!!!!

NoTransistors said:
You are the blind, leading the blind. Everyone is referring to the manual, guessing what these oils are and where they go. Person 'A' says sewing machine oil; 'B' says Mobile 1.
You need to understand that this model is complex, and very easy to f*** up.
Also, you need to repeat after me, "If it ain't broke, then don't try to fix it."
Use plain, ordinary 10W40- [nothing thicker or thinner] car engine oil on the motor, platter bearing and support, idler support rod, knob shaft bushings, under-chassis lever pivot-points.
Clean the gear, but use nothing to replace that grease. Everyone seems to ruin that gear, by getting grease all over everything. The trip prawl is too easy to foul up. You can use 'PhonoLube', but it will still muck things up if/when it gets into all the little doohickies on the gear.
I always drop the platter bearing, clean, and then re-oil. Can you attempt that?
Also, the motor needs to be split open to get oil into the top bushing.
Unless the cueing is fast, leave it alone. W/O the previous experience of a disassembly, replacing that Wacker 300,000 weight damping paste (fluid) can lead to breaking things, including the all-plastic rear-gimble height-adjuster. Also, the arm may bind afterwards. Never think that anything from AutoZone can do the job of that damping paste.
Lightly sand the idler wheel with 600+grit emory paper, while it is being spun by the motor. Clean the platter inner rim, and motor pulley with vodka. Drink the rest.
Tighten up on the arm bearings, if you dare. This is best done with the tonearm in your hand; uninstalled from the machine.

Also, order the guide-white and the washer; part #s 216-845 and 223-777, from [WWW.turntableexperts.com] They must be replaced.

FYI- The 1st Dual that I fixed, I broke. This was in 1975, and I learned from my errors.

Seth
Forever Analog
Click to expand...

Other than using 30 weight oil on the motors I have not touched my Duals. If they are running quietly dont mess with them. Period. My 1009's (got three) sorry I like 'em. are 41 years old. Took the motors apart on two, the 3rd one is quiet so I left it alone--for now. It had a flat spot on the idler. Small. so I was able to sand it out using a very fine sand paper. My 1009 F has been quiet for three years now. Accidently left it on all night last Feb. :cry: Its still quiet!
The 1229 I have not touched in 4 years and its still quiet. All is well. Listen to Seth. He's the main Dual man here! :yes:
 
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Seth's on the ball, but need to offer a correction - if you do open the cueing, the service manual calls for 500,000 weight, not 300,000 weight. I have both 500,000 and 600,000 weight. Have found that the 500,000 weight works perfectly in the 1219, 1229, but use the 600,000 weight in the 1218, 1228, etc. Nice and slow - and being a little thicker (less viscous) won't drizzle out quite so fast over time.

Yup - hit and miss - More than once in days gone by I've pitched a Dual in the trash at 1:00 AM after working all night on it, only to pull it out the next AM & start again...
 
The 1219, 1229, 1218, 701 and others ORIGINALLY called for 300,000 weight damping fliud. I have the booklets right here. The replacement models were very similar to these. but were upgraded to the thicker stuff. I don't like snail-slow, but this is a matter of taste. The 1229Q arm always drifts upon decent, because the arm surface that contacts the tiny cue dot is not rough enough. A super-slow decent makes this worse be giving it more time to drift. The drift is from the anti-skate.

Seth
Forever Analog
 
I need to take my medicine & admit that I was wrong (there I go trusting my memory). Seth is correct - the 1219 calls for a 300,000 weight. It's the 1209 that calls for the 500,000 weight. BUT, I will still say that the 600,000 weight works just GREAT in the smaller chassis Duals - again, nice & slow without drifting. Only time will tell if it's longevity is better because it is more viscous & should have less of a tendency to wick out of the cueing tube. And, even though the factory calls for 300,00 weight in the large Duals, I have had great success with 500,000 weight - again, nice & slow, but without drifting. In both cases, I really notice a smoother upwards cueing motion - a little more resistance. But - too much of something can be a bad thing - I tried 600,000 weight in a 1229, & the stylus tended to sit on top of the groove before it fully engaged the record - NOT good.

Next time, I'll do my homework before I open my mouth - sorry!!
 
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