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Digital audio explained (even I grasped some of it!)

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It's an excellent tutorial. Thanks for the link!

(Plus, he uses a generator and scope near and dear to my heart.)

-k
 
Hi Ken,
I wanted to say thatI really enjoyed your recent contributions to a couple of threads that unfortunately were closed. :tears:

Sharp fellow that made these vids. He also wrote an article on the futility of 24/192 downloads here.

Can't really debate that one as it's over my head but theres a hundred page thread on headfi he contributes to.

Cheers
 
Hi Ken,
I wanted to say thatI really enjoyed your recent contributions to a couple of threads that unfortunately were closed. :tears:

Sharp fellow that made these vids. He also wrote an article on the futility of 24/192 downloads here.

Can't really debate that one as it's over my head but theres a hundred page thread on headfi he contributes to.

Cheers

Thanks! And thanks for turning me on to the video. I will pass it around, for sure.

-k
 
Ah yes. This guy certainly knows his stuff.

Though, the fact is that humans can quite easily hear up to around 28khz (potentially above that). Ask me how I know ;) So at the very least there is an argument to be made for high sample-rate... to a point (around 80khz as a revised red-book standard would legitimately make a lot of sense, increasing bit-depth is useless however).
 
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That dude is awesome! Been looking for something like that for years to show to digital naysayers.
 
Ah yes. This guy certainly knows his stuff.

Though, the fact is that humans can quite easily hear up to around 28khz (potentially above that). Ask me how I know ;) So at the very least there is an argument to be made for high sample-rate... to a point (around 80khz as a revised red-book standard would legitimately make a lot of sense, increasing bit-depth is useless however).
not quite true. a small percent (probably less than 1%) of young healthy adults may hear up to 24-25 kHz, but above that it's not the sense of hearing that might be stimulated. A few people might "sense" some higher frequency vibrations, but it's likely through skin sensation or possibly cavity resonation (e.g. in the paranasal sinuses). The thing about music reproduction, though, is that those very high frequency sounds are so low in level that even in that small number of people who can hear that high, they can't hear sound at that loudness level.

all that being said, some theorizers postulate (with pretty good experimental evidence from other branches of science) that something like 20 bit 60 kHz smapling rate is probably necessary for truly accurate music reproduction. Note that that is for playback, not recording, and assumes perfect implementation of digital audio theory in the hardware/firmware.
 
not quite true. a small percent (probably less than 1%) of young healthy adults may hear up to 24-25 kHz, but above that it's not the sense of hearing that might be stimulated. A few people might "sense" some higher frequency vibrations, but it's likely through skin sensation or possibly cavity resonation (e.g. in the paranasal sinuses). The thing about music reproduction, though, is that those very high frequency sounds are so low in level that even in that small number of people who can hear that high, they can't hear sound at that loudness level.

Nope. You've simply been told that. I've got a very simple test for you to erase any doubt of how invalid the typical assumptions of high-frequency hearing limits for humans are.

First, get one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Dazer-II-Ultrasonic-Deterrent/dp/B000IBRI2Y

The device comes with a battery so it works right out of the box, now I want you to hold it with the transducer angled directly on-axis towards your ear at about 1.5 ft. out (arms length or whatever). Push the button down, then ... tell me how long you can do that without experiencing severe discomfort from the sound.

Any guess as to what frequency is being emitted? :scratch2:

all that being said, some theorizers postulate (with pretty good experimental evidence from other branches of science) that something like 20 bit 60 kHz smapling rate is probably necessary for truly accurate music reproduction. Note that that is for playback, not recording, and assumes perfect implementation of digital audio theory in the hardware/firmware.

Ah, there truly is much misinformation on the internet.
 
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riff, just because you can hear it doesn't mean rbbert isn't correct. He is. When I was 16 I could hear a bad component in a TV by the squeal it would emit. Now I'm 47 and I can only hear to about 14k. How old are you?
 
I saw this video on another site, I don't know if it's been posted before but I think it's a great explanation of the voodoo, err...science behind analogue-to-digital conversion by an expert in the field.
That was an enjoyable presentation. Charles Hanson of Ayre pretty much agrees with the notion that only 16 bits are truly needed in the final product. What he observes, however, is that most real world laddered DAC chips don't deliver what they promise. And editing digital recordings compromises bit depth. Which is why either 24 or 32 bits (DXD) are universally used in the recording industry.

Does Monty have a presentation showing real world measurable results of the necessary filters for sampling limited to 44.1k?

Charles Hanson on ringing
 
riff, just because you can hear it doesn't mean rbbert isn't correct. He is. When I was 16 I could hear a bad component in a TV by the squeal it would emit. Now I'm 47 and I can only hear to about 14k. How old are you?

Here's a question, how are you testing your hearing? Do you know the exact response of the system being used to generate the tones? Have you verified it with calibrated wide-band measurement microphones that you can verify are accurate well into the "ultrasonic" region with NIST-traceable plots or equivalent electronic cal files? Was the calibration method done with a pistonphone at 1khz with against a truly linear (not z-weighted) preamp? Have you verified the actual output waveform qualities on a proper scope, spectrograph or frequency counter?

Then how do you know that you can only hear xyz? Again. This is what people have told you, and this is also why I'm stating to get that device (believe me, for the price and the kind of "wtf" moment you'll have, it's worth the entry fee). Testing your hearing on an iphone or whatever is like trying to bake a Thanksgiving dinner in an easy-bake oven. It just doesn't make sense.

I'm 28 myself, and everyone in my office can hear the tone emitted by a Dazer II (hint, I have a number of co-workers between 35 and 50).

I'll divulge what the frequency the device emits after someone tries it. ;)
 
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Here's a question, how are you testing your hearing? Do you know the exact response of the system being used to generate the tones? Have you verified it with calibrated wide-band measurement microphones that you can verify are accurate well into the "ultrasonic" region with NIST-traceable plots or equivalent electronic cal files? Was the calibration method done with a pistonphone at 1khz with against a truly linear (not z-weighted) preamp? Have you verified the actual output waveform qualities on a proper scope, spectrograph or frequency counter?

Then how do you know that you can only hear xyz? Again. This is what people have told you, and this is also why I'm stating to get that device (believe me, for the price and the kind of "wtf" moment you'll have, it's worth the entry fee). Testing your hearing on an iphone or whatever is like trying to bake a Thanksgiving dinner in an easy-bake oven. It just doesn't make sense.

I'm 28 myself, and everyone in my office can hear the tone emitted by a Dazer II (hint, I have a number of co-workers between 35 and 50).

I'll divulge what the frequency the device emits after someone tries it. ;)

So, I have to calibrate my stereo with a non z weighted preamp but you get to prove your hypothesis with a $25 dog whistle? With all due respect, you sound like a crackpot and will probably get this very useful thread closed.
 
So, I have to calibrate my stereo with a non z weighted preamp but you get to prove your hypothesis with a $25 dog whistle? With all due respect, you sound like a crackpot and will probably get this very useful thread closed.

You're missing the point (this is a similar recoil kind of response I've gotten from really any forum where I've mentioned that the assumed limitations of human hearing are bunk). And i'm going to get this thread closed because... why exactly?

Look, my point was that an iphone obviously can't produce ultrasonic tones at an appreciable (much less linear) level so testing your hearing limits on one is pretty useless. Are we on the same page here? OK. So far so good. Now, next point is that obviously an electronic dog whistle can produce a proper ultrasonic tone because well, that's the whole point of the product. If you can hear that device, then uh... I don't think I should have to spell the last part out for you. I thought it wasn't going to be a stretch for someone to read my remarks as I've just described here in this paragraph but I guess I was incorrect.

Would it help to say that I test ultrasonic air transducers like the one in the product I linked to for a living? How about if I mention I'm actually the guy who tells some of the specialized audio manufacturers that I work with how to properly test these transducers as well? Maybe? Should I keep going?

Now that we've cleared that up, like I alluded to, the most interesting part is how high a frequency is a Dazer II operating at in terms of output? And I'm not just going to go ahead and spill that info until someone tries what I mentioned. It's really not that hard. If you're afraid that maybe everything you've been taught about the limitation of human hearing is wrong then just say so. Additionally, what I'm talking about here is totally relevant to the linked video (and hence the thread) because Monty references his other video about high-sample rate/high bit-rate downloads. So, I fail to see the issue here.
 
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Would it help to say that I test ultrasonic air transducers like the one in the product I linked to for a living? How about if I mention I'm actually the guy who tells some of the specialized audio manufacturers that I work with how to properly test these transducers as well?

Nope.

I especially love the way you put "assumed" in bold face then assumed I was doing my testing with an iPhone.
 
Nope.

I especially love the way you put "assumed" in bold face then assumed I was doing my testing with an iPhone.

It was a generalization. Maybe you're using a consumer stereo, or a specific set of headphones paired with some playback mechanism. The point is do you know the exact response of the entire system? Maybe you do and you simply don't like me and won't dignify what I'm talking about with a proper response. In that case, you responding to me becomes somewhat pointless.

You've caught me on a trite technicality, which of course does nothing to validate your position here (which I'm assuming [ha!] is that you think I'm a crackpot, that's the only real point I've been able to pick up on). If you'd like to actually respond to crux of my thoughts then I'd be happy to have an actual conversation. :thmbsp:

You seem like a fun guy to debate stuff with.

Being that I've spent my entire life doing audio engineering (and now do a very specialized form of it), it's one of the very few things I would really ever challenge anyone on. Someone tells me "you're wrong", and of course my response is "not based on established testing methodology and engineering practices that produced the data I'm looking at here in my R&D lab". There's unfortunately a lot of information I have which is protected by my company's NDA I signed so I can't immediately start pulling all the spectrographs and testing videos I've done to show beyond the shadow of a doubt that I'm not a neophyte to culling very accurate wide-band acoustic measurements but oh well.

But seriously guys, just buy a Dazer and see if you can hear it. Is that so crazy?
 
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