Used HK 990 Arrived Damaged; Options? Thoughts?

Hey guys,
I just acquired a Harman/Kardon HK 990 from a nice seller on Ebay.
The unit works great, and sounds pretty good, and I like the features it offers.

When I un-packaged the unit, I heard some rattling inside. I pulled the top cover, carefully flipped it upside down, and two small silver screws fell out. I wasn't quite sure what to make of this at first. My first thought was that they looked like screws used for fastening plastic parts; coarse thread; sharp. Upon initial inspection of the inside, nothing seemed loose or otherwise out of place. I connected the cables and speakers and proceeded to audition, and sent the previous owner an email asking about this while I was listening. I was wondering whether he was perhaps working on another piece of equipment, and accidentally left the screws on top and perhaps they'd fallen in.

After that, during my initial tests, I noticed that the volume knob felt funny. It seemed wobbly and was hard to turn. I had my suspicions as to the cause at this point given the loose screws. Upon closer inspection and after removing the top cover to air-dust the unit, I noticed that the volume knob assembly was indeed torn away from its attachment point on the front face plate. In addition, I was finding little pieces of black plastic.

I think the volume knob assembly was damaged during packing or shipping due to the heft of the unit. I can see how it would be possible for this part to be damaged in this way if the unit were allowed to rest on the volume knob or face plate during moving or packaging, possibly.

The seller has been great. Very communicative and apologetic and offering to cover repairs, but HK doesn't stock the part and there is no definitive ETA. A local shop owner all but said he doesn't want to work on it.

I really like the unit with what little time I had to audition it so far.

My question is, what sort of hit on resale might I expect if I were to keep the unit and repair it myself? given that the face plate is unavailable, I would be looking probably at an epoxy repair and possibly some other rigging. I feel fairly confident that everything else is in working order, but this was an expensive piece, ~$1200, and I don't want to be forced to take a beating should I decide to resell.

What do you guys think? Would it even be resellable? I would, of course, have to disclose this repair to any potential buyers. Personally, I'm not sure that I would consider purchase of a piece like this if it were damaged, unless significantly discounted. This particular flaw would be easily concealed, and I do not, at this point, think that it will affect performance at all.

Should I just return it?

Here are some photos so you can see what I'm talking about.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a2qxz2drpp4o64/IMG_0235-edt.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/78kmok663mvgpae/IMG_0236-edt.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h7npx3bex83580k/IMG_0240-edt.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0u4kp2kjhnwh3x/IMG_0241-edt.JPG?dl=0

It's hard for me to get a sense of exactly how the repair would go from those pictures. Got any that show the whole deal?

not handy, but essentially, it's a few of these plastic posts that are cracked and broken off. the main thing is the volume knob. I'm not sure of the function of the metal tabs, though, considering that they "thread" through slots on a metal panel that gets screwed to the rest of the heavier chassis, it may be some sort of grounding.

I would return it, if that was an option.

thanks spaghetti - definitely considering it. what would be your reasoning? hassle factor, or concern for unseen damage? both?

mhedges -
here's a photo of the two main pieces of the face plate assembly.
the top section is the back side of the front facing piece of the assembly. it has all the display and button components in it.

the bottom section is a heavy steel panel that the front/plastic panel attaches to. this steel panel gets attached to the sides and bottom panels on the main chassis, then the cables connected.

you can't really tell how this works from the photo, but I'll try to describe the assembly process. those brass/copper colored metal tabs have two holes. one is for a coarse screw that secures it in place to the plastic panel. then, the tab goes through a slot in the metal panel as it is fitted over the top, and then tab is bent over and then a screw is supposed to go through to fasten the tab to the metal panel - the bare metal circular areas, which leads me to believe this is for grounding. does that make sense? the plastic posts on the front panel piece are all cracked and broken, but I think that they serve more to keep the tabs in place and against some grounding points I'm guessing are behind the control panel. I haven't gone that far with it. There's a service manual out there that I could probably find this information in. so, it's actually a compound problem - this fastening design, and then the volume knob assembly.

I will note here that the plastic face plate is properly secured to the metal panel by other means, so I don't think it would be loose or anything.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c0jll1lu2bfljiu/hk990 face plate assy.jpg?dl=0

My reasoning for returning it would be that it was damaged in shipment, the damage includes broken plastic parts that cannot be repaired to the same condition as before the damage took place, and you have been unable to find a professional willing to repair it.

Now, that said, if you want to keep it, you could ask for a partial refund from the seller - but I would guesstimate that about 30% would probably be the max refund possible unless the seller is unusually nice. But if 20-30% of what you paid would go a long way towards the repair cost (assuming you could get it repaired), or would just make you feel better, then that would be an option.

Basically, whatever option makes you have peace of mind and feel happy with the outcome, that's the option you should pursue first IMHO.

As much as you like the H/K, I would definitely return it. Since the buyer has been helpful, and you have been in contact with him, he is already aware there is a problem. If the component is not 100% working properly, no one should have to go through any issues. I am sure another one will show up and could possibly be in better condition.

I hope everything works in your favor.

being as parts aren't available i would be sending it back unless a very generous refund was offered . then i might get someone to print a new part for me .

thanks for all the feedback fellas. definitely struggling with the decision, but like most of you've said, I think it's probably best it go back since I have the opportunity. agreed that it would take a generous compensation offer for me to feel okay keeping it.

I really don't understand why you don't simply repair it and put it down to experience.

For goodness sake, it's a second-hand item, shipped in good faith by a seller who completed his end of the bargain and something outside both his and your control damaged a few plastic spigots for a volume pot/encoder.

Why should the poor seller have to wear a total loss? The attitude around here of returning things that get damaged is unbelievable- they are second-hand items being sent through third party freight companies. I take the view, if you want protection, take out insurance, as the item is YOURS once it is paid for and the responsibility for safe transit belongs to YOU.

I've had things damaged but I've never sent anything back or asked for a refund because that's the risk I take buying that way. If I want refunds, guarantees etc, I'll buy brand new, in a box and take it home in my car.

insurance is on whoever packed the item and booked the courier .
i pack things so they can fall 10 feet and survive . some of them conveyor belts in shipping places are pretty high . i have seen the video where stuff falls off.
i have never had a broken item through shipping and have shipped many amps etc .

That receiver is pretty heavy, I dont know how far it would have to be returned too but it might cost you more in shipping the thing back than your thinking. Something to think about as you will probably have to eat that cost.

if its just a matter of epoxy the plastic back on, I'd do that and get on with life.
as previous post, youd have to fund the shipping back.

restorer-john said:

I really don't understand why you don't simply repair it and put it down to experience.

For goodness sake, it's a second-hand item, shipped in good faith by a seller who completed his end of the bargain and something outside both his and your control damaged a few plastic spigots for a volume pot/encoder.

Why should the poor seller have to wear a total loss? The attitude around here of returning things that get damaged is unbelievable- they are second-hand items being sent through third party freight companies. I take the view, if you want protection, take out insurance, as the item is YOURS once it is paid for and the responsibility for safe transit belongs to YOU.

I've had things damaged but I've never sent anything back or asked for a refund because that's the risk I take buying that way. If I want refunds, guarantees etc, I'll buy brand new, in a box and take it home in my car.

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+1
This is generally the position and risk I take when buying from the auction site. However, with the sizable spend of your purchase hopefully insurance reimbursement enters the picture.

restorer-john said:

I've had things damaged but I've never sent anything back or asked for a refund because that's the risk I take buying that way. If I want refunds, guarantees etc, I'll buy brand new, in a box and take it home in my car.

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We don't know if the damage was caused by improper handling or bad packaging.

Usually when I get items damaged it's because the seller doesn't care to pack properly, whether he thinks insurance will refund me or he simply doesn't care about what happens to the item once shipped, I don't know, but I cannot see any other reason for such behavior, given the fact that I always ask the seller to pack the items properly and give also some advices.

So, when I get an item damaged because of poor packaging I think the responsibility is 100% on the seller, and he should take the loss. That's much more true when the item is expensive (I think that the OP stated the value of the receiver is about $1200). That's also educational: probably from now on he will start to pack items properly or sell only local.

You can think the responsibility is on the poor seller but it is not.

Once paid for, the item is yours and you take a significant responsibility for it. It is not cut and dried one way or the other. It is a shared responsibility and if the seller packed it in good faith you've really got no leg to stand on.

Too much blame shifting these days- suck it up, repair it and move on.

There's a reason new gear comes in purpose designed boxes and if people must persist in buying heavy gear secondhand, without original packaging and shipping it across the country, non-professionally packed, I think they MUST accept the risks that come with that.

spaghetti said:

We don't know if the damage was caused by improper handling or bad packaging.

Usually when I get items damaged it's because the seller doesn't care to pack properly, whether he thinks insurance will refund me or he simply doesn't care about what happens to the item once shipped, I don't know, but I cannot see any other reason for such behavior, given the fact that I always ask the seller to pack the items properly and give also some advices.

So, when I get an item damaged because of poor packaging I think the responsibility is 100% on the seller, and he should take the loss. That's much more true when the item is expensive (I think that the OP stated the value of the receiver is about $1200). That's also educational: probably from now on he will start to pack items properly or sell only local.

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restorer-john said:

You can think the responsibility is on the poor seller but it is not.

Once paid for, the item is yours and you take a significant responsibility for it. It is not cut and dried one way or the other. It is a shared responsibility and if the seller packed it in good faith you've really got no leg to stand on.

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The key here is "good faith". All the times I received a seriously damaged amp/receiver/radio it was always evident that the seller simply didn't take the time and did no effort to protect the item properly.

See the attached pics? This is from the latest incident: last week a nice German radio from the 60s arrived to me with the dial glass broken in pieces.
It was wrapped in a single layer of bubble wrap plastic, extra protection was added with a layer of very light polystyrene sheets (about 0.5inch thick) and finally everything was wrapped with a flimsy cardboard.
Basically each side had at best 1inch of packaging protection: how could anybody seriously believe it would arrive undamaged? The radio is glass and wood... and quite heavy. It survived 50 years but eventually somebody decided it was
not worth too much care, once paid for.

Of course I had written to the seller all the usual recommendation and packing advices, but he evidently ignored them. I really can't see any good faith in this, he just didn't care about the destiny of the radio, once paid and shipped.

Do you still think he stands on the right side?

restorer-john said:

For goodness sake, it's a second-hand item, shipped in good faith by a seller who completed his end of the bargain and something outside both his and your control damaged a few plastic spigots for a volume pot/encoder.

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Almost certainly NOT correct.

The seller did a crap job of packing. Remember, most shipping companies require the item to be packaged so as to survive a bomb blast. You will find, when you file an insurance claim, that the claim will be denied due to "insufficient packaging". (In fact, denial of shipping insurance claims is epidemic, regardless of circumstances. Shipping insurance is essentially worthless.)

restorer-john said:

Why should the poor seller have to wear a total loss? The attitude around here of returning things that get damaged is unbelievable- they are second-hand items being sent through third party freight companies. I take the view, if you want protection, take out insurance, as the item is YOURS once it is paid for and the responsibility for safe transit belongs to YOU.

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ABSOLUTELY wrong. The buyer does not choose how well the product is packaged. In many cases, the buyer is not offered a choice of shipping company, or shipping speed. The sender makes those decisions. By the way, shipping companies deal with the shipper in case of damage, not the receiver. (although the receiver has to make the damage known to the company, and allow them to inspect the packaging.) So again, the responsibility is on the seller/packager.

The BUYER is at the mercy of the seller, it is the SELLER who must take the responsibility for safe arrival of the item.

The buyer does not choose how well the product is packaged. In many cases, the buyer is not offered a choice of shipping company, or shipping speed. The sender makes those decisions.

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Bull hockey! Just read a link on on my reference last week who got a rare amp intact specially protected and insured.

Nobody and I repeat: "Nobody said the was a cheap hobby"..

I have to laugh thinking people who flip (not last poster) and think they can make money? It's a hobby.. in/out. you won't be in bus. very long if you flog cheap fixes.

Some things have changed. The seller is apparently no longer willing to accept the return after calling to speak with Ebay the other day. In his message to me, he loosely cited some Ebay policy that I voided the right to return during the inspection process by removing the top access panel to determine whether there was any damage and what was rattling around. Although carried out carefully and with full communication with the seller, this action may end up screwing me. All along, even after this inspection process, the seller has offered more than once to take the unit back. He has offered $100 toward repairs, but I don't see that going very far, and the part(s) aren't even available at this point. At any rate, I am more concerned for the item's resale value than I am for the repair cost. I like the unit, but am simply not comfortable paying full price for it given its condition.

Personally, I consider removal of the access panels part of regular use of such equipment, but what I do in equipment care is not necessarily synonymous with Ebay's buy/sell policy, so hopefully it won't screw me. The first thing I do with any piece of equipment is power it up to test it. Then I unplug it and pull the cover to inspect and air dust. Then I put the cover/panel back on and give it a wipe with a mild cleaner. in this case, obviously, I didn't want to power it up with something rattling around inside.

How might damage/repair like this affect the resale value? 30% hit? 50% hit? more?
And what would you guys do when selling were you in a similar situation? Would you fully disclose, or hope a buyer just wouldn't discover?

According to Ebay's policy, this item/transaction should be covered under their Money Back Guarantee policy
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html#previous

The item is not received as described in the listing.
The case was opened within 30 days of delivery.
The purchase was made through Ebay using PayPal. It was made using "Make Offer", however, not "Buy It Now" as stated in the policy. Not sure this part makes any difference; the transaction was handled through Ebay and PayPal.

When an item doesn't match the listing description:
Buyer opens case by contacting seller through Resolution Center (done)
Seller to address buyer's concern and offer solution - accepting return or offering refund
If buyer not happy with seller's response, buyer can ask Ebay to review case.
If item returned to seller, item must be in same condition as received.

There have been some changes to Ebay's policy, effective September 15, 2014, where the seller is now required to pay for the return shipping in such cases.

To clarify, this item was packed in the original packing - original shroud, and original packing foam and box.
The seller then double boxed it with a layer of bubble just to protect the unit box a bit.
I would consider this to be very well packaged, imho.
I unpacked it on a plush couch, and was sure to be mindful of the volume knob given the unit's heft, so it was only ever rested on its sides while I unwrapped the shroud, which the seller had taped.
I first heard the rattling when removed the unit from the box and turned it up on its side to access the shroud opening.
This all leads me to believe that the unit was inadvertently/accidentally damaged during the handling/packing phase and not through shipping.
I have not made any accusations, only asked questions. Our exchanges were polite.

petehall347 said:

insurance is on whoever packed the item and booked the courier .
i pack things so they can fall 10 feet and survive . some of them conveyor belts in shipping places are pretty high . i have seen the video where stuff falls off.
i have never had a broken item through shipping and have shipped many amps etc .

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Agreed, yes, I've bought several pieces through Ebay and Audiogon, and have not had any problems like this before.

hhibrownsbac said:

That receiver is pretty heavy, I dont know how far it would have to be returned too but it might cost you more in shipping the thing back than your thinking. Something to think about as you will probably have to eat that cost.

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USPS originally put it at around $45. not sure whether that was some special deal just for Ebay.

ants2au said:

if its just a matter of epoxy the plastic back on, I'd do that and get on with life.
as previous post, youd have to fund the shipping back.

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my concern is for the resale of the item.
return shipping responsibility is unclear according to the policy at this point. Ebay will apparently sometimes cover it if the seller will not.

I would be new to selling. does this sort of damage/repair not devalue the item?

gbroot said:

This is generally the position and risk I take when buying from the auction site. However, with the sizable spend of your purchase hopefully insurance reimbursement enters the picture.

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I agree somewhat. Damaged was not part of the original agreement. not sure where the insurance/reimbursement comes in on this sort of thing. again, though, there is no evidence of shipping damage in any way that could have caused this. there are some stress/compression marks on the outer box in a couple of places, but nothing that would have caused this, and the inner box appears fully intact, with no other indications of distress. packing was tight.

spaghetti said:

We don't know if the damage was caused by improper handling or bad packaging.
Usually when I get items damaged it's because the seller doesn't care to pack properly, whether he thinks insurance will refund me or he simply doesn't care about what happens to the item once shipped, I don't know, but I cannot see any other reason for such behavior, given the fact that I always ask the seller to pack the items properly and give also some advices.
So, when I get an item damaged because of poor packaging I think the responsibility is 100% on the seller, and he should take the loss. That's much more true when the item is expensive (I think that the OP stated the value of the receiver is about $1200). That's also educational: probably from now on he will start to pack items properly or sell only local.

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pretty sure it was handling at this point. it was packaged very well in the original box/shroud/foam, and it was all solid and tight when I opened it.
the seller seems like a good guy, so I don't think he's tried to pass off a piece of damaged equipment. if it was damaged during handling, he may not have realized it.

restorer-john said:

You can think the responsibility is on the poor seller but it is not.
Once paid for, the item is yours and you take a significant responsibility for it. It is not cut and dried one way or the other. It is a shared responsibility and if the seller packed it in good faith you've really got no leg to stand on.
Too much blame shifting these days- suck it up, repair it and move on.
There's a reason new gear comes in purpose designed boxes and if people must persist in buying heavy gear secondhand, without original packaging and shipping it across the country, non-professionally packed, I think they MUST accept the risks that come with that.

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I disagree on the responsibility, and apparently, so does Ebay in such situations if you look at their money back guarantee, and their new adjustments to it which go into effect on Sept 15th. According to Ebay, the responsibility is completely on the seller to see that the item reaches the buyer in the same condition in which it was listed. If the buyer wants to arrange for his own shipping/freight, he voids the Ebay money back guarantee. If he pays outside of Ebay, he voids the guarantee. It's pretty clear cut.

I couldn't agree with you more on the packaging and purpose-designed boxes.
This item was shipped in the original packaging. I passed on another unit that went cheaper than this one, because the seller did not have the original packaging. I am usually willing to pay a little more for items that ship complete with all parts, accessories, and original box and packing materials.

hopefully my good faith in working with the seller on this in order to assess the extent of the damage doesn't come back to bite me. his last correspondence with me indicates that he is no longer open to the return. I am not sure why he has changed his mind and has stopped communicating, so I am going through the resolution steps detailed by Ebay. in hindsight, I should probably have stopped as soon as I heard the rattling. our correspondence was very pleasant, open, honest, and forthcoming through the whole process. very communicative seller, so I trusted that there wouldn't be any issues, and that he'd make it right to my satisfaction.

I would consider keeping the unit were he to make a significant concession for the damage. $100 just doesn't cut it. the reason I paid so much for this one is because it was listed as being rarely used with approx 15hrs use, and in pristine condition. I did not spend this amount of money to be saddled with a piece of damaged equipment, period. to me, as is, it is worth about half, or nothing at all, hence my desire to return.


thanks for all the feedback guys, I appreciate all the input.
hope I can get this resolved okay, but not sure.
this is the first time I've ever had any trouble buying used equipment like this.